Daggah

Um, someone correct my reasoning if it is flawed, but does not the conservative christian have the burden of proof when he makes the assertion that the USA is a Christian nation?

My logic follows:

1) The United States of America's government is defined by one document, the Constitution.
2) The Constitution does not contain a proclamation of Christianity - nor of any religion - anywhere within its words.
3) Therefore, the United States is not a Christian or religious nation.

Hence, the burden of proof is not on us to present documents like the Treaty of Tripoli, or references to Supreme Court cases. The burden of proof is on them to present documents proving their point of view, and of course, those documents don't exist.

Buffman

IMHO, the Constitution does not set out all our individual rights. It does establish a timeless mechanism that helps to surface and codify those rights and does prevent government, or a majority, from infringing on the specific rights found in the state ratified first ten amendments.

However, the theists are correct to point to the Declaration of Independence as the American founding document that attributes all rights to a Creator God. They must use that interpretation in order to have even the slightest validity to the claim that we are "under God" since the document that founded the government of the United States specifically states that it is "We the people" who will determine the appropriate mechanisms for determing our individual rights.

Therefore, your position is not very strong. We must use the intent of the Founding and Framing Fathers to guide us along the appropriate path to liberty and the free exercise of individual conscience within the framework of our Constitutional law system. We are a nation "under constitutional laws" not someone's supernatural God...unless you consider the Supreme Court in the same manner it appears to be viewing itself lately...the one and only true God in America.

Jamie_L

This is true, but I think you are drawing the wrong conclusion from it. The Constitution does not set out all the rights of citizens, but it DOES set out ALL the rights of the federal government. The federal government does not have any power that the Constitution does not grant it. Anything not in the Constitution is reserved for the people (and the States, of course, a thorny distinction made better but muddier by the 14th Amendment).

So, if the Constitution does not say that the U.S. government has the power to endorse and promote religion, then it does not have that power. Period. End of story.

Jamie

Richard1366

Although the Declaration of Independence does contain the phrases "Natures God" and "Creator" this document simply avows our independence from England. The Constitution and Bill of Rights are the true foundation for our nation and the word "God" or "Jesus" or "Creator" or "Savior" never appears.

Shadowy Man

When confronted with this argument, i.e. they must provide proof that this is a Christian nation, don't most people claim that the Founders were mostly Christian, and then support their beliefs with quotes about that demonstrate their piety?

But isn't this argument flawed? Even if the Founders were fanatical fundamentalists, they created a secular Constitution, and hence a secular nation.

An analogy might be this: If a rock band has all devout Christian members, is the music they create by necessity "Christian Rock"?

TollHouse

Excellent analogy! I'll be adding that one to my reportorie.

<yoink!>

DarkBronzePlant

Although a counter to this analogy might be this:

If each musician, while forming the band, agrees that the band will produce christian rock, and later one of the musicians decides that s/he does not want to play music of that genre, wouldn't s/he be required to do so anyway if s/he remains in the band?

I personally disagree with that, but it would be a decent comeback for a theist.

Shadowy Man

Yes, that might be a comeback from a theist, but I think you just need to say this: Well, how can you know that the band agreed to produce "Christian Rock" if their songs don't contain any lyrics with the words "God", "Jesus", "Salvation", etc. If they intended it to be Christian, they hid that fact pretty well.

[ July 09, 2002: Message edited by: shadowy_man ]</p>

Sowthistle

These are also very deistic epithets for a divine being. It's not like the DoI uses the phrase "Jesus Christ" or "God of Sabbaoth" or something like that...

It's amusing to see the same fundamentalist mindset that claims that no church that doesn't constantly harp on Jesus this and Jesus that can really be called Xptian, now is trying to say the same amount of commitment to some form of divinity is beyond question evidence of the Xptian roots of America.

ST

Mageth

I've been thinking about this very topic a bit this morning. I am of the opinion that the framers of the constitution's intent was to separate state and church as much as possible.

However, an answer I offer to those who think the founders' intent was to form a Christian nation is, even if that is so, the best (and perhaps only) way to insure religious liberty for all is to have a government completely neutral as to religion. Whether that was the founders' intent or whether it's something our country has only since its founding discovered is irrelevant to the fact that stringent, complete separation of church and state is an ideal we should all strive for to protect our individual rights to worship (or not worship) in the way we see fit.

So perhaps we should pay less intention to the founders' intentions or religious leanings and pay more attention to what is best for the country, and for each of us as citizens, in today's religiously diverse climate.