Freethought & Rationalism Archive

lpetrich · 04-13-2002, 09:41 AM

I wonder if anyone has ever tried deducing evolution by natural selection from the Bible. And I include macroevolution in that.

One may have to carefully snip away any context from many of the quotes to be used, but it might be possible to do that.

Kevin Dorner · 04-13-2002, 01:49 PM

Most of the Christians on earth already did this when The Origin Of Species was published...

The reasoning went roughly that an omnipotent being could have chosen to create everything instantaneously, but instead, took six "days" to to so. Already, it is being demonstrated that things did not pop into being suddenly but instead did so over time. If you allow the interpretation of Genesis as a parable or metaphor, then the days could be referred to as eras lasting millions or billions of years.

It is only a relatively small number of Christians that insist that the creation story be taken at absolute literal face value (even though there are two creation accounts and they contradict each other.) Many of the the more progressive non-fundamentalist Christians dislike this interpretation as much as unbelievers do, because it leads to a requirement for obeyance of the weird and nasty laws in Leviticus, and also contradicts the New Testament where Christ clearly speaks in parables, and the denial of scientifically measured objective reality (ie evolution, the heliocentric solar system, etc.)

lpetrich · 04-13-2002, 04:03 PM

KD, that was not what I was asking for. I was asking for actual quotes from the Bible that can be interpreted as demonstrating evolution, however grotesquely out-of-context they might be.

Kevin Dorner · 04-13-2002, 04:56 PM

Ooohkay then... you ask the nigh-impossible but I will grotesquely misquote, as that is the only way to do this.

Quote:

Leviticus 19:19 - ....Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind...

This is an interesting one as it shows that the artificial "kind" boundary that creationists claim can't be bred across is just not so. Here is an admonishment not to breed two "kinds" together which shows that there is no boundary.

Quote:

Malachi 3:6 - For I am the LORD, I change not...

This could imply that all other things do.

Quote:

Deuteronomy 32:14 - ...and rams of the breed of Bashan...

A "breed" is a subspecies that was produced usually by artificial selection, but by understanding this it is demonstrated that living things can be altered over time. If humans can do it by controlling their breeding, so can they.

If I can think of or stumble on any more, I will edit to add them. Not likely...

[ April 13, 2002: Message edited by: Kevin Dorner ]</p>

Wyrdsmyth · 04-13-2002, 05:30 PM

Well, evidently, rabbits have evolved since Biblical times; they no longer chew their cud.

hezekiah jones · 04-13-2002, 05:45 PM

And snakes' vocal chords are now vestigial organs.

Pantera · 04-13-2002, 06:11 PM

Glenn Morton makes a valiant effort at reconciling evolution with a literal reading of Genesis <a href="http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/synop.htm" target="_blank">here</a>.

Quetzal · 04-14-2002, 06:33 AM

I don't know how valid the citation is, but a cretinist just finished posting this on another board (almost as if in answer to your question):

Quote:

Secondly, I have no problem with your use of Natural Selection in the way that you have described it. In fact, you will find a similar experiment in the Book of Genesis: Genesis 30:41-43.

Anyone have any idea what he's talking about?

Of course, he then goes on to the usual handwaving about the Pythagorean essentialist basis of the natural world like every other creationist without an argument ("a horse is always a horse because of its fundamental essence of horse-ness" or whatever way they dress up the "kinds" argument).

Kevin Dorner · 04-14-2002, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Genesis 30:41-43 - And it came to pass, whensoever the stronger cattle did conceive, that Jacob laid the rods before the eyes of the cattle in the gutters, that they might conceive among the rods. But when the cattle were feeble, he put them not in: so the feebler were Laban's, and the stronger Jacob's. And the man increased exceedingly, and had much cattle, and maidservants, and menservants, and camels, and asses.

Looks like some sort of artificial selection to me. However, it comes right after:

Quote:

Genesis 30:37-39 - And Jacob took him rods of green poplar, and of the hazel and chesnut tree; and pilled white strakes in them, and made the white appear which was in the rods. And he set the rods which he had pilled before the flocks in the gutters in the watering troughs when the flocks came to drink, that they should conceive when they came to drink. And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle ringstraked, speckled, and spotted.

However, this can be used way out of context, which was the intention.

lpetrich · 04-14-2002, 09:44 AM

That story in Genesis 30 might be called Lamarckian genetic engineering.

But it's clearly rather difficult to cough evolution out of the Bible, as all your valiant efforts indicate.

04-13-2002, 09:41 AM	#1
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Deducing Evolution from the Bible? I wonder if anyone has ever tried deducing evolution by natural selection from the Bible. And I include macroevolution in that. One may have to carefully snip away any context from many of the quotes to be used, but it might be possible to do that.

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04-13-2002, 01:49 PM	#2
Kevin Dorner Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 762	Most of the Christians on earth already did this when The Origin Of Species was published... The reasoning went roughly that an omnipotent being could have chosen to create everything instantaneously, but instead, took six "days" to to so. Already, it is being demonstrated that things did not pop into being suddenly but instead did so over time. If you allow the interpretation of Genesis as a parable or metaphor, then the days could be referred to as eras lasting millions or billions of years. It is only a relatively small number of Christians that insist that the creation story be taken at absolute literal face value (even though there are two creation accounts and they contradict each other.) Many of the the more progressive non-fundamentalist Christians dislike this interpretation as much as unbelievers do, because it leads to a requirement for obeyance of the weird and nasty laws in Leviticus, and also contradicts the New Testament where Christ clearly speaks in parables, and the denial of scientifically measured objective reality (ie evolution, the heliocentric solar system, etc.)

04-13-2002, 04:03 PM	#3
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	KD, that was not what I was asking for. I was asking for actual quotes from the Bible that can be interpreted as demonstrating evolution, however grotesquely out-of-context they might be.

04-13-2002, 05:30 PM	#5
Wyrdsmyth Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Sarver, PA, USA Posts: 920	Well, evidently, rabbits have evolved since Biblical times; they no longer chew their cud.

04-13-2002, 05:45 PM	#6
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	And snakes' vocal chords are now vestigial organs.

04-13-2002, 06:11 PM	#7
Pantera Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Cambridge, England, but a Scot at heart Posts: 2,431	Glenn Morton makes a valiant effort at reconciling evolution with a literal reading of Genesis <a href="http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/synop.htm" target="_blank">here</a>.

04-14-2002, 09:44 AM	#10
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	That story in Genesis 30 might be called Lamarckian genetic engineering. But it's clearly rather difficult to cough evolution out of the Bible, as all your valiant efforts indicate.

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