Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ProNihil · 03-05-2003, 06:25 PM

Ok, slight dilemma here. In a while, I will be going to live with my Dad and Stepmom who are both devout Mormons. I will be subjected to massive propaganda efforts not so much from them, but from their friends and members of the church who come to dinner i.e. home teaching done by missionaries.

I really need to learn how to defend my Atheist views in such a way that I will be able to have an intelligent conversation with these people and not have to get online and go to the SecularWeb debate section in the middle of it. I'm guessing I need to learn ALL of the rules of argument and debate. I'm going to need to be quick on my feet here people.

Anyway, since I am a voracious reader, I was hoping someone could recommend a book or two that I could really study hard and that will give me a fighting chance. Actually, I would prefer recommendations for books both about theism vs. non-theism AND just general arguing capability/debate/how to recognize faulty arguments etc. You get the point.

Thanks for your help!

Koyaanisqatsi · 03-06-2003, 12:08 AM

Well, that's tough because you're dealing with Mormons (an ex girlfriend of mine was a Mormon. Not fun, but really fun, if you know what I mean).

Here are two sites that might help:

The first one has sections on Mormonism, but both are primarily Cliff's Notes to the questions regarding the scriptures behind it all.

If you want a more direct route, then you might want to address the finding (and subsequent loss) of the gold tablets by Joseph Smith, but be carefull; there are more apologetic answers to the whole Joseph Smith bullshit than to "free will" and "the trinity" combined, including a rationalization of polygamy.

I suggest (if challenged) that you address their dietary laws, specifically the ban on sugar and caffeine (which may have been lifted, I'm not sure, I stopped tracking the Mormon cult once I broke up with my sixth grade girlfriend). Mormons were actually banned from eating sugar and ingesting caffeine. Which meant that (back in the late seventies, early eighties) anybody who drank a Pepse would go to hell.

Problem was that the Mormon Church was a huge stock holder of Pepsi.

Also, Mormons believe that you will have your physical body returned to you in heaven as you left it on earth. So, pulled teeth means no teeth in heaven; removal of appendix, means no appendix in heaven; which, finally means that they strongly discourage their members from becoming organ donors after death. No joke.

As with all sects, the question is how orthodox are they? Most likely, they will be like just about every other cult member is; clueless about the why's and whatnot's of their sect, beyond vaguely discussed past dogma as a means to marginallize and belittle.

It will be (to them) like you're bringing up Medieval constructs and they will most likely argue that "no one believes that way anymore."

Of course, the question is, "Why not?" Wasn't that God's commandment as translated through Joseph Smith?

And so on...

Ultimately, though, they're christians, so it will always go back to Jesus, so you can apply the same devastation of that myth as you would any other.

Your "success" rate will be .03, but if one of them is in his or her early teens, that .03 will alter their lives in the most positive way imaginable, IMO.

It will eventually set them free.

Funny how that echoes the truth their uber cult so desperately seeks to obfuscate.

Good luck, and remember that appealing to their reason will not work, nor will appealing to their common sense (especially in regard to Joey Smith); but by appealing to their lack of adherence to the New Testament and their almost complete dismissal of the Old Testament (combined with a side swipe to their polygamist past), you'll at least be able to stave off the onslaught and implant that .03 in the one or two (let's be hopefull) family member already questioning why their family believes such nonsense to begin with.

In other words, I think the best you can do with family members is to shoot for stalemate as you secretly inject the anti-dote in the one family member that seems most susceptible to the cure.

JCS · 03-06-2003, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Ok, slight dilemma here.

YOW that is a understatement! Big question, how are your dad and step mom going to view you attacking their beliefs. I know you think you are defending your beliefs but I highly doubt that will be their view.

Quote:

I really need to learn how to defend my Atheist views in such a way that I will be able to have an intelligent conversation with these people and not have to get online and go to the SecularWeb debate section in the middle of it.

I don't see why you have to respond immediately to anything they say. Don't let them set the rules of engagement. If pressed you could say that this is to important to not give serious thought and attention. Then when you have had time to satisfactorily research what they have said you can address them then. If they don't like it then offer them up the option of not discussing religious beliefs at all. Lay out the playing field to your liking not theirs.

Quote:

general arguing capability/debate/how to recognize faulty arguments etc.

A good place to start would be here.

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html

Good luck ProNihil, and remeber you don't have to justify your nonbelief to anyone but yourself.

{fixed link - Maverick}

DoubleDutchy · 03-06-2003, 05:16 AM

This book might be exactly what you are looking for. I have used it myself and highly recommend it, it's excellent. Unfortunately I don't know whether an English translation exists; i'll try to find out.

Schleichert, Hubert: Wie man mit Fundamentalisten diskutiert, ohne den Verstand zu verlieren. Anleitung zum subversiven Denken. M�nchen: C. H. Beck, 1997, 2nd ed.
The first part deals with correct arguments and their limits, that is with tools for a good argumentation. The second part shows how to undermine fundamental positions: By drawing all possible conclusions -- even the most extreme -- from the premisses.
Schleichert

Bill Snedden · 03-06-2003, 06:35 AM

While I sympathize with your situation, I have to wonder if your desire to DESTROY theist arguments might not tend to alienate you from otherwise loving family members.

Of course, what works for me ("thanks, but I'm just not interested") may be much less effective for you. IOW, you may simply have no choice but to engage them directly. If so, I wish you good luck and hope that you're able to do so without damaging such familial relationships as you wish to maintain.

At any rate, while I'm sure that the denizens of this board will have much excellent advice to offer, I think that this thread isn't really suited for the Philosophy forum. Given your situation, I think you might get a better response (including ideas for options, if any exist) in the Secular Lifestyle and Support forum, so I'm moving this thread there.

Regards,

Bill Snedden

P.S. The SL&S forum was my first choice, but this might fit into GRD or MD as well. Any objections, please let me know.

Seeker630 · 03-06-2003, 07:50 AM

"Anyway, since I am a voracious reader, I was hoping someone could recommend a book or two that I could really study hard and that will give me a fighting chance. "

Two I would recomend right off the bat are "Atheism, The Case against God" by Geroge H. Smith, and

"The Atheist Debater's Handbook", by B.C. Johnson.

The latter is especially easy to read and hits the highlihgts of the most common theistic apologetics in readable english. Smith's book is far more complete and much longer. It is a standard among atheists but is not a fast read. Very detailed and complete. If you're in a hurry go for Johnson's book 1st. I found my copy of Smith's book at a Barnes and Noble, and the Johnson book I thik I got off the internet at either Amazon, or the Freedom From Religion Foundation.

You will find lots of others at Prometheus Books--the leading publisher in the U.S. of books for non-believers. I don't have a link for them but it shouldn't be hard to find.

ProNihil · 03-06-2003, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Snedden
While I sympathize with your situation, I have to wonder if your desire to DESTROY theist arguments might not tend to alienate you from otherwise loving family members.

Regards,

Bill Snedden

P.S. The SL&S forum was my first choice, but this might fit into GRD or MD as well. Any objections, please let me know.

Thats a really good point, and I'm glad you brought it up. My plan in that regard was basically to put some acting skills to the test. When I said "destroy", I wasn't really talking about taking a hammer to their arguements; more like a hammer dressed up in a little pink tutu. I figure that if I can use the socratic method with these folks, and lead them into the place where they think they are the ones teaching me, that would be pretty good. And if I ask alot of questions, I'm hoping it will make me look naturally inquisitive and not like a know-it-all.

Anyway, thanks again. Direct confrontation hardly ever does any good. Polite discourse where one can develop somewhat of a repor (sp?) with the other guy usually works the best. We would all do good to be reminded of that.

ProNihil · 03-06-2003, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi

Here are two sites that might help:

Biblical Errany Website

The Skeptic's Annotated Bible

Koyaanisqatsi,
Thanks very much for the recommendations. I've been looking around for some sites like that that I can browse around in my spare time.
Appreciated

Ensign Steve · 03-06-2003, 11:14 AM

I don't have much to add, except to re-emphasize what has been said. Brush up on logical fallacies at the link JCS pointed you to. Religious arguments tend to be fallicious, and if you can spot the fallacy, you can tear it down easily. Also, learn a couple of the key Bible contradictions. The skeptic's bible is a good place for those, too. One of my favorites is the fact that Eve didn't learn the difference between right and wrong until she ate the fruit, so how could she have known it was wrong to eat the fruit ahead of time. See if they have good answers to that and other choice contradictions.

I also recommend reading Bertrand Russell's Why I'm Not a Christian if you haven't already. It may not be practical to refer to it in the middle of a debate, but just reading it ahead of time might help give you ideas of how to eloquently phrase ideas that you may know, but not be able to express. It helped me, anyway.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/russell0.htm

I have to say I am envious of you. I have this arsenal of debate fodder, thanks to much reading on this board and other resources, and I never get a chance to use it. My fundie in-laws refuse to talk to me (gee, I wonder why). I had a JW at my door the other morning, but I was too tired to put on any chothes. I probably should have just opened the door anyway, LOL!

Good luck!

Jen

Edited to add: Oops, I just re-read your post and you said you are going to live with them. I was thinking you were just going for a visit. Anyway, I don't know if you're happy about that or not, and I won't assume, but I am not envious of you, anymore.

ImGod · 03-06-2003, 11:23 AM

When they go to church stay home and do something nice for them like clean the house, yardwork, wash a car, etc. If they ask you why you skip church to do these things (i.e. church is more important) just say, "Even though I think your wrong regarding religion, I still love you."

You know, mess with their minds.

03-05-2003, 06:25 PM	#1
ProNihil Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 228	Where can I learn HOW to destroy theist arguments? Ok, slight dilemma here. In a while, I will be going to live with my Dad and Stepmom who are both devout Mormons. I will be subjected to massive propaganda efforts not so much from them, but from their friends and members of the church who come to dinner i.e. home teaching done by missionaries. I really need to learn how to defend my Atheist views in such a way that I will be able to have an intelligent conversation with these people and not have to get online and go to the SecularWeb debate section in the middle of it. I'm guessing I need to learn ALL of the rules of argument and debate. I'm going to need to be quick on my feet here people. Anyway, since I am a voracious reader, I was hoping someone could recommend a book or two that I could really study hard and that will give me a fighting chance. Actually, I would prefer recommendations for books both about theism vs. non-theism AND just general arguing capability/debate/how to recognize faulty arguments etc. You get the point. Thanks for your help!

03-06-2003, 12:08 AM	#2
Koyaanisqatsi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Yes, I have dyslexia. Sue me. Posts: 6,508	Well, that's tough because you're dealing with Mormons (an ex girlfriend of mine was a Mormon. Not fun, but really fun, if you know what I mean). Here are two sites that might help: Biblical Errany Website The Skeptic's Annotated Bible The first one has sections on Mormonism, but both are primarily Cliff's Notes to the questions regarding the scriptures behind it all. If you want a more direct route, then you might want to address the finding (and subsequent loss) of the gold tablets by Joseph Smith, but be carefull; there are more apologetic answers to the whole Joseph Smith bullshit than to "free will" and "the trinity" combined, including a rationalization of polygamy. I suggest (if challenged) that you address their dietary laws, specifically the ban on sugar and caffeine (which may have been lifted, I'm not sure, I stopped tracking the Mormon cult once I broke up with my sixth grade girlfriend). Mormons were actually banned from eating sugar and ingesting caffeine. Which meant that (back in the late seventies, early eighties) anybody who drank a Pepse would go to hell. Problem was that the Mormon Church was a huge stock holder of Pepsi. Also, Mormons believe that you will have your physical body returned to you in heaven as you left it on earth. So, pulled teeth means no teeth in heaven; removal of appendix, means no appendix in heaven; which, finally means that they strongly discourage their members from becoming organ donors after death. No joke. As with all sects, the question is how orthodox are they? Most likely, they will be like just about every other cult member is; clueless about the why's and whatnot's of their sect, beyond vaguely discussed past dogma as a means to marginallize and belittle. It will be (to them) like you're bringing up Medieval constructs and they will most likely argue that "no one believes that way anymore." Of course, the question is, "Why not?" Wasn't that God's commandment as translated through Joseph Smith? And so on... Ultimately, though, they're christians, so it will always go back to Jesus, so you can apply the same devastation of that myth as you would any other. Your "success" rate will be .03, but if one of them is in his or her early teens, that .03 will alter their lives in the most positive way imaginable, IMO. It will eventually set them free. Funny how that echoes the truth their uber cult so desperately seeks to obfuscate. Good luck, and remember that appealing to their reason will not work, nor will appealing to their common sense (especially in regard to Joey Smith); but by appealing to their lack of adherence to the New Testament and their almost complete dismissal of the Old Testament (combined with a side swipe to their polygamist past), you'll at least be able to stave off the onslaught and implant that .03 in the one or two (let's be hopefull) family member already questioning why their family believes such nonsense to begin with. In other words, I think the best you can do with family members is to shoot for stalemate as you secretly inject the anti-dote in the one family member that seems most susceptible to the cure.

03-06-2003, 06:35 AM	#5
Bill Snedden Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,597	Dilemma? While I sympathize with your situation, I have to wonder if your desire to DESTROY theist arguments might not tend to alienate you from otherwise loving family members. Of course, what works for me ("thanks, but I'm just not interested") may be much less effective for you. IOW, you may simply have no choice but to engage them directly. If so, I wish you good luck and hope that you're able to do so without damaging such familial relationships as you wish to maintain. At any rate, while I'm sure that the denizens of this board will have much excellent advice to offer, I think that this thread isn't really suited for the Philosophy forum. Given your situation, I think you might get a better response (including ideas for options, if any exist) in the Secular Lifestyle and Support forum, so I'm moving this thread there. Regards, Bill Snedden P.S. The SL&S forum was my first choice, but this might fit into GRD or MD as well. Any objections, please let me know.

03-06-2003, 07:50 AM	#6
Seeker630 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: North America Posts: 1,624	Re: Where can I learn HOW to destroy theist arguments? "Anyway, since I am a voracious reader, I was hoping someone could recommend a book or two that I could really study hard and that will give me a fighting chance. " Two I would recomend right off the bat are "Atheism, The Case against God" by Geroge H. Smith, and "The Atheist Debater's Handbook", by B.C. Johnson. The latter is especially easy to read and hits the highlihgts of the most common theistic apologetics in readable english. Smith's book is far more complete and much longer. It is a standard among atheists but is not a fast read. Very detailed and complete. If you're in a hurry go for Johnson's book 1st. I found my copy of Smith's book at a Barnes and Noble, and the Johnson book I thik I got off the internet at either Amazon, or the Freedom From Religion Foundation. You will find lots of others at Prometheus Books--the leading publisher in the U.S. of books for non-believers. I don't have a link for them but it shouldn't be hard to find.

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03-06-2003, 05:16 AM	#4
DoubleDutchy Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Switzerland Posts: 889	This book might be exactly what you are looking for. I have used it myself and highly recommend it, it's excellent. Unfortunately I don't know whether an English translation exists; i'll try to find out. Schleichert, Hubert: Wie man mit Fundamentalisten diskutiert, ohne den Verstand zu verlieren. Anleitung zum subversiven Denken. M�nchen: C. H. Beck, 1997, 2nd ed. The first part deals with correct arguments and their limits, that is with tools for a good argumentation. The second part shows how to undermine fundamental positions: By drawing all possible conclusions -- even the most extreme -- from the premisses. Schleichert

03-06-2003, 11:14 AM	#9
Ensign Steve Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Augusta, Georgia, United States Posts: 1,235	I don't have much to add, except to re-emphasize what has been said. Brush up on logical fallacies at the link JCS pointed you to. Religious arguments tend to be fallicious, and if you can spot the fallacy, you can tear it down easily. Also, learn a couple of the key Bible contradictions. The skeptic's bible is a good place for those, too. One of my favorites is the fact that Eve didn't learn the difference between right and wrong until she ate the fruit, so how could she have known it was wrong to eat the fruit ahead of time. See if they have good answers to that and other choice contradictions. I also recommend reading Bertrand Russell's Why I'm Not a Christian if you haven't already. It may not be practical to refer to it in the middle of a debate, but just reading it ahead of time might help give you ideas of how to eloquently phrase ideas that you may know, but not be able to express. It helped me, anyway. http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/russell0.htm I have to say I am envious of you. I have this arsenal of debate fodder, thanks to much reading on this board and other resources, and I never get a chance to use it. My fundie in-laws refuse to talk to me (gee, I wonder why). I had a JW at my door the other morning, but I was too tired to put on any chothes. I probably should have just opened the door anyway, LOL! Good luck! Jen Edited to add: Oops, I just re-read your post and you said you are going to live with them. I was thinking you were just going for a visit. Anyway, I don't know if you're happy about that or not, and I won't assume, but I am not envious of you, anymore.

03-06-2003, 11:23 AM	#10
ImGod Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Nebraska Posts: 6,264	When they go to church stay home and do something nice for them like clean the house, yardwork, wash a car, etc. If they ask you why you skip church to do these things (i.e. church is more important) just say, "Even though I think your wrong regarding religion, I still love you." You know, mess with their minds.

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