Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Rima · 07-04-2003, 09:27 AM

the Holy kiss :

have you ever heard about such a thing
I have heard of , the Holy bible , the Holy land , the Holy scripture, but the holy Kiss ??
Romans 16:12-16

12 Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord.
13 Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
14 Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren which are with them.
15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.
16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

what did Paul mean by the Holy KISS , is there a Holy and a non holy Kiss, how do they practice this Kiss
thanks

livius drusus · 07-04-2003, 03:07 PM

Rima, there aren't very many xians posting regularly on this site. I'm not entirely sure why you want to ask people who are more likely to believe that the material you're quoting is complete fiction for an explanation instead of asking people who actually believe in the angels dancing on the head of a pin.

In any case, since your question is a matter of Biblical interpretation, I am moving this thread to our Biblical Criticism & History.

Toto · 07-04-2003, 03:33 PM

Liberal Christians seem to interpret it as a hug or sign of affection.

Quote:

The holy kiss is mentioned five times (Romans 16:16; 1 Corinthians 16:20; 2 Corinthians 13:12; 1 Thessalonians 5:26; 1 Peter 5:14). It was probably a hug, as is still common among males in the Middle East. Among Christians it had obviously become a sign of warm family affection. The fact that it is mentioned in five different epistles suggests that it had become a sign of Christian love. "Love one another with mutual affection" (Romans 12:10).

There's a lot of history on kissing as a form of greeting in the Roman empire, Judaism, and in the early and medieval church here. The Romans in the first century felt that kissing in public was obscene

Quote:

Just as the Bible directs Christians to practice holy communion and baptism, it also directs them to greet each other with a holy kiss:

Greet one another with an holy kiss. (Romans 16:16)
Greet ye one another with an holy kiss. (1 Corinthians 16:20)
Greet one another with an holy kiss. (2 Corinthians 12:12)
Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss. (2 Corinthians 12:12)
Greet one another with a kiss of charity. (1 Peter 5:14)

Some left-wing liberal scholars have suggested that these verses are just the opinions of Peter and Paul and that we are free to ignore them. However, those who respect the Bible and strive to follow its teachings point out that Jesus Christ Himself expected to be greeted this way because he chided Simon the Pharisee because he did not greet Him with a kiss:

Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet. (Luke 7:45)

Here's another historical treatise from a fundamentalist group that condemns liberals for taking the "holy kiss" as a mere greeting rather than a literal command: The Holy Kiss

Rima · 07-05-2003, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by livius drusus
.

In any case, since your question is a matter of Biblical interpretation, I am moving this thread to our Biblical Criticism & History.

that is exactly what I wanted to do , to post this thread on "Biblical Criticism" forum , but I did not know how (since I am a new member)
thanks for help

Rima · 07-05-2003, 08:18 AM

Toto: thank you for the detailed reply , and the very helpful link

These verses provide Biblical evidence that it is God's intent followers of Christ are to greet and salute one another with a holy kiss.

so the Holy kiss is only between believers (christians) , what does that mean:
does it mean that the Kiss (greeting) is Holy only if it is between christians ?
does it mean that Christians are not allowed to kiss (greet) non christians ?

is this "Greeting Kiss" with non christians , unholy??
thanks

Geoff Hudson · 07-05-2003, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rima
the Holy kiss :
what did Paul mean by the Holy KISS , is there a Holy and a non holy Kiss, how do they practice this Kiss
thanks

He didn't say this in the original - its monkish editors endulging their fantasies. It should be "greet one another in the Spirit" - the theme of Romans 16, a chapter which contains some arbitrary punctuation to say the least.

Geoff

Doctor X · 07-05-2003, 11:39 AM

Really?

According to my sources it reads, "slapeth each other upon thine posteriors."

[Stop that!--Ed.]

Er . . . yes . . . sorry. . . .

--J.D.

Jeremiah · 07-06-2003, 09:24 PM

I think that Paul may be contrasting a common sign of greeting (a kiss on the cheek; still regularly used in European culture) with the kiss of betrayal by Judas. Remember that the Judas was deceitful and dishonest in his kiss of Jesus to mark him for the crowd, and Paul is admonishing Christians to be sincere and not fake in their greeting.

Toto · 07-06-2003, 09:28 PM

The kiss by which Judas betrayed Jesus was a later invention (as was Judas). Paul knows nothing about Judas or a kiss of betrayal.

mark9950 · 07-07-2003, 04:51 AM

all the kissing going on especially the man to man kiss?

Is there an ulterior motive or am I homophobic?

07-04-2003, 09:27 AM	#1
Rima Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: USA Posts: 90	The Holy Kiss the Holy kiss : have you ever heard about such a thing I have heard of , the Holy bible , the Holy land , the Holy scripture, but the holy Kiss ?? Romans 16:12-16 12 Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord. 13 Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine. 14 Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren which are with them. 15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them. 16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. what did Paul mean by the Holy KISS , is there a Holy and a non holy Kiss, how do they practice this Kiss thanks

07-06-2003, 09:24 PM	#8
Jeremiah Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 16	Sincere respect I think that Paul may be contrasting a common sign of greeting (a kiss on the cheek; still regularly used in European culture) with the kiss of betrayal by Judas. Remember that the Judas was deceitful and dishonest in his kiss of Jesus to mark him for the crowd, and Paul is admonishing Christians to be sincere and not fake in their greeting.

07-07-2003, 04:51 AM	#10
mark9950 Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: midwest usa Posts: 1,203	What is with all the kissing going on especially the man to man kiss? Is there an ulterior motive or am I homophobic?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-04-2003, 03:07 PM	#2
livius drusus Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Selva Oscura Posts: 4,120	Rima, there aren't very many xians posting regularly on this site. I'm not entirely sure why you want to ask people who are more likely to believe that the material you're quoting is complete fiction for an explanation instead of asking people who actually believe in the angels dancing on the head of a pin. In any case, since your question is a matter of Biblical interpretation, I am moving this thread to our Biblical Criticism & History.

07-05-2003, 08:18 AM	#5
Rima Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: USA Posts: 90	Toto: thank you for the detailed reply , and the very helpful link These verses provide Biblical evidence that it is God's intent followers of Christ are to greet and salute one another with a holy kiss. so the Holy kiss is only between believers (christians) , what does that mean: does it mean that the Kiss (greeting) is Holy only if it is between christians ? does it mean that Christians are not allowed to kiss (greet) non christians ? is this "Greeting Kiss" with non christians , unholy?? thanks

07-05-2003, 11:39 AM	#7
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Really? According to my sources it reads, "slapeth each other upon thine posteriors." [Stop that!--Ed.] Er . . . yes . . . sorry. . . . --J.D.

07-06-2003, 09:28 PM	#9
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The kiss by which Judas betrayed Jesus was a later invention (as was Judas). Paul knows nothing about Judas or a kiss of betrayal.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.