Unforgiven Too

Here comes Unforgiven Too, the curious lurker. . . .keeps it alive....

You have a public to address here, Evil. You can't leave us hanging like this!

C'mon. . . man. . . . DON'T HOLD OUT ON ME!

Soul Invictus

I am pretty content with letting them go about their lives. It's not that I berate them or anything. Naturally they want me to be saved too, (I'm sure they wish I'd acquiesce to the Lord) so they'll come to me. I offer my opposing views as a rebuff, so I don't want to covey as though I come to them with the attitude of "Hey I've been looking more into your religion and I have proof that it's a fraud, so let's debate" I merely give my stance in response to their probing. My goal is to show them that Christians aren't the only righteous people (assumption) or moral people, so I'm guessing I'd have to concur that trying to reconcile similarities would be beneficial. I'm not sure how to do this, what is effective or what to touch on. My brother really wants me to come to a bible study class to talk with a preacher whose a Bible scholar, as well as a minister (whom he says asks critical questions like myself) and he thinks it would be beneficial for me. I have 2 types of questions, those that criticize the existence of a deity and those( that take the assumption that if one existed) criticize the logic in which we're supposed to love he/she....this would be your "Does God sin because he killed people" type questions...the ones that give them the benefit of the doubt. I've recently read that this gives them the upper hand, however starting with my original line of questioning fails to ever go anywhere...any suggestions for me as well?

I think I was going to be going Milkman's route because a few questions I was going to pose was

1) tree of knowledge problem-what purpose would the tree serve but to tempt man to sin, and also isn't this tree a good thing? why not eat of it?

2) God ordering Abraham to sin- once you get past the semantics of calling it a sacrifice, basely God orders Abraham to murder Isaac....thus committing sin. Would God tempt man to either do what he knows to be right (not kill) vs strictly adhere to his command and obey (kill his son and obey God's word)

3) God and the future- assuming God is all knowing he knows who will/won't choose him. knowing this he still allows these people to be created knowing they are destined for damnation. the argument that we have a choice is weak because, again he knows we won't choose him, so is it fair/cruel to allow these people to be born?

there are a few more, and these aren't typed lucidly as I'd like, but the job calls I like these type of questions because it challenges the adherent of the faith to analyze their principles. Although they may be indoctrinalized in their faith, these are critical questions to a believer, I would think (We shall see though)

My most convincing argument, which is one that I'm hoping the board could help me with....even if it borders along the "irrelevant" line of questioning.

That would be how to deal with the fact that Yawweh,Christ, God, (in the Christian concept) was not the first deity. If someone has sources or info on this, please let me know. I would want to convey that since he isn't the first God (which a true God would have made himself available "in the beginning") then Christians must come off of their proverbial high horse and understand that Christianity, like other religions are used to explain things of nature and is used a coping mechanism to explain the unexplainable....IMO

enough typing....HELP ME WITH THOSE SOURCES!!!!




Invictus

Rhea

I'm coming in really late, and only read page one so far, but I find it interesting and that it often evens the playing field to start a theological discussion with asking the christian expert,

"Why are you NOT a muslim?"
or,
"Please explain why you are NOT a Hindu."
"What process did you go through to reject Hinduism?"

You know, presented in a friendly, open, non-confrontational tone - as if you KNOW he has OBVIOUSLY gone through the exploration in an HONEST search for the truth.


I'd really like to know!

Sort of a live version of, "When you consider why you have rejected all other gods, you will know why I reject yours"

HelenM

If that convinced you, I respect that.

However I don't think it will get you anywhere with a Bible-believing Christian because the Bible says a) In the beginning God and b) God created Adam, the first human, and spoke to Adam.

So - God was first, according to the Bible.

What God told Adam (and/or other believers in Him) is assumed to have been handed down from them to successive generations and is assumed to be the truth.

Whether there are other ancient writings which predate copies of Genesis and whether they agree with it or not, will not sway a Bible-believing Christian. Unless you can get that Bible-believing Christian to start doubting whether the Bible is the inerrant word of God. Unless they doubt that then they will simply assume that the Bible is true and the Bible says God was 'in the beginning' and God spoke to Adam, the first human.

Anyway, I expect many people here could point you to sources which discuss other ancient writings about other gods. But I think if you try to discuss them with a Bible-believing Christian you'll get a response like "The Bible says God was 'in the beginning' and if Adam knew God, then belief in Him was the first belief in God(gods) that anyone had. ' End of discussion.

Helen

Soul Invictus

I know dealing with a hard core Bible believer is hard to do, because it's held as reputed fact. I would think that you could combat that with finding more ancient writings...Genesis isn't the most ancient text we have is it? I can't see that it could be. Helen, you know what, even if I had a variety of more ancient texts older than Genesis, it probably would do little to sway a Christian thinker, because unfortunately they won't admit the Bible is fallible. I still would like to have the sources of the tools at my disposal.

(I guess I haven't banged my head against the wall enough from going in circles long enough!)
:banghead:

Invictus

HelenM

The thing is, it doesn't matter which written text is older; Bible-believers will tell you that what Genesis says was orally handed down from Adam.

Helen

Evil Milkman

Oops, haven't check this thread in a while. Got kind of side tracked with playing an old game with some buddies these last two days. You know how it goes.

Anyway, I haven't even talked further with my girlfriend about talking with her youth pastor. Should I bring it up or wait for her to say something about it? I'm not sure if she cares anymore about it... I will use all of this good advice if I do end up scheduling a meeting with Matt, though. Thanks to everyone who responded! If you have any more questions/advice feel free to post them.

Later...

long winded fool

While there are certainly religious texts that predate Genesis, it isn't necessary to assume that the God of the Israelites was born with Moses and the book of Genesis, likely written around the 14th century BCE. Moses was simply a collecter of the beliefs and traditions of the Israelites who existed long before the first books of the Bible. A Mother Goddess was worshipped in Europe before even agriculture 6000 years BCE, and it's reasonable to assume she wasn't the first diety. Though there are various theories where the god Yahweh came or evolved from, he has no definite birthdate.

Also, from a non-fundamentalist Christian perspective, assuming the possibility of dieties, who's to say the very first Mother/Protector Goddess wasn't Yahweh with a different name? An omnimax god would seem to have no definite gender. Hebraic tradition alone would make him "Father" as opposed to "Mother." Therefore, a god predating the name Yahweh isn't necessarily older or even different than the god now called Yahweh. Since dieties are non-physical entities, how do you determine when a "god" has evolved in the minds of humans sufficiently enough to be considered a different god? How do you determine that dieties worshipped on opposite sides of the world at different times and with different names are not, in fact, the same omnipresent God?

Starboy

Whether or not to bring religion up with your girlfriend depends on how serious you are about her. If you intend a more permanent relationship, the sooner you test your religious compatibility the better. I must warn you, even if you think you are compatible, when kids enter the picture all bets are off.

On the other hand if you just want to enjoy the relationship for as long as it lasts, I would advise not to bring up religion unless she does.

Starboy

Rusting Car Bumper

Use simple examples: Do you believe in the "Golden Rule"? If you were sick in the hospital would you insist on modern medicine or would you be satisfied with prayer? Do you want your neighborhood free of crime? Do you want your children to grow up happy and secure? and so on.

I'd guess that you and almost all theists would agree on all of these points. The point then is stress that THESE ideas are what's important. They are what matters in our lives far more than abstract theological points.

He thinks ganging up on you will be beneficial for you. Well, tell him you are happy and content with your life and to give your warmest reagrds to his "scholar" friends.

It's a waste of time. You aren't convincing them and they aren't convincing you. Why bother? It's good to study these things for your own intellectual development but direct debate is rarely useful.

If you REALLY want to talk to them then you ought to start out asking why THEY believe.

Then when they give you reasons and those reasons are of the fine tuning, cosmological, ontological variety then ask "If I refute that will you then stop believing?" They will answer No. When they do this indicates how fruitless it is to discuss these in the first place.

If one says they believe because of personal experiences then youahve to say that I cannot and will not refute that and furthet you must understand that I cannot honestly find that convincing just as you cannot find the personal experience of the Muslim convincing.

It's likely a waste of time.

DC