seebs

The theory is that, after all, you could always choose to accept God, rather than rejecting Him. I rather liked _The Great Divorce_, where the difference between hell and purgatory is simply whether or not you ever decide to leave. Not that it's *easy* to leave - but it's always possible.

post-it

As a liberal Baptist, I define hell as the "grave". It is a word which means the ground portion of where the body decomposes into after the physical death. In Rev. 20:13 you will see that "hell" and the "sea" will give up their dead.
If you take the time to read all the other verses that contain hell, you will also see that it most likely makes more sense using this definition than a "fire" definition. In fact, I challenge you to find where the Bible shows hell containing fire that torments man after death. Therefore, your argument starts to fall apart when you can't support that hell is defined by the Bible. Your definition comes from a skewed interpretation of scripture.

But let's assume that hell is defined as you say. Your first premise establishes that God is just. Therefore, hell could be a justification type punishment for wrongs committed by man. This would make premise 2 false and melt your whole argument.

[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: post-it ]</p>

Taffy Lewis

post-it:

I take it that you accept some form of conditional immortality---the notion that only those who have salvation will live forever and those without it will cease to exist.

It has been argued by many theologians through history that it is the view best supported by the Bible.

The notion of hell as a literal place of eternal physical and psychological suffering probably says more about those who accept it than it does about theism or christianity.

Philosoft

However, God has not deigned to make it clear to me that I'm rejecting him rather than an alleged concept of him.

post-it

Almost correct. I think that many (most all) who have done good in this life can also be given an eternal life. Rev also says that the dead will be judged by what they have "done" while on earth. This leaves a pretty wide door open on who may live afterwards. It also could condemn a lot of Christians, after all, Hitler claimed to be a Christian too.

Mageth

In fact, I challenge you to find where the Bible shows hell containing fire that torments man after death.


Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment), ...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night...

Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Matthew 18:8, 9 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Isaiah 66:24, And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark 9:44 (speaking of hell), Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrha...are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Matthew 13:41-42, The Son of man (Jesus) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 21:8, But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Luke 16:22-24:

22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]

[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

Taffy Lewis

Here is an interesting case for conditional immortality and thus a case against the view of hell as eternal physical/psychological torment.

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/athens/oracle/5862/hell2.html" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/athens/oracle/5862/hell2.html</A>

post-it

everlasting fire doesn't mean man will be tormented, it means the fire doesn't go out.
This also doesn't contain men, only a handful of Satan's own.
Whereupon they "die".
Again, the fire is everlasting, it mentions nothing about torment everlasting. The fire destroys upon being place into it. Side note: Fire is used through out the entire Bible in a definitional use of "distruction of the physical."
These are physical man after God kills them. The worm that never dies is a Maggot. Maggots don't die, they turn into flies and other insects. The fire not being quenched is reference to the destruction that can't be stopped. It will look a horrible mess to other men as you can see by the next verse. So this area of Isaiah has nothing to do with hell but with a war torn battle field. this is a reference to the Isaiah battlefield scene I just described above. It has nothing to do with hell. eternal fire again is used as an eternal destruction that can not be undone. In other words Sodom and Gomorrha shall not revive. It is often the final judgment of God on a people, race, religion, etc that has this word usage. The Bible does not support an entire group of people all being tormented in hell, but it is common to see them killed by the hand of God. It has nothing to do with hell, as only individuals are judged at the white throne judgement.
This is a parable. It still doesn't say that the torment is for any amount of time past the point of being thrown into the fire. In fact, earlier the parable says the weeds are put into the fire and burned. It also is unclear who and what is the cause which according to REV is the handful of Satan's group at the end time. It says that death (second death) is the result of being thrown in the Lake of fire. The first death is hell then the dead are brought back to life. So the 2nd death must be assumed to be like the first death.
This is a parable. It really has other parts to it that is not a reality of any Christian religious belief, such as people talking to each other from heaven and this hell. This is just a lesson on not becoming too comfortable in life to the extent one stops being concerned with the lowly and poor. Nothing more. Nor is it supported by any other part of the Bible as being true. Some have doubted that this is a parable. But when Jesus told a story that started with the words like "There was a man" it was always a parable. Only when the author of the Gospels started a story with "There was a man" was the story based on a true event.

Marduk

Welcome aboard Post-it. What you say reminds me of a guy I used to listen to on the radio when I was a little kid, Herbert or Garner Ted Armstrong I think, he shared your beliefs about hell.
And it seems quite correct, Jesus was not, for the most part, a 'hellfire' type preacher. Sermon on the mount, Lords Prayer. say nothing about hell, I think if it really were forever he would have made a much bigger deal of it. The word isn't even in John's Gospel. And when it does appear in others it's usually as 'gehenna' a physical place in Jerusalem. The Bible, being of middle Eastern origin, contains alot of hyperbole.

Mageth

Obviously, there are hordes of others (xians and non-xians) who interpret the above verses and come to the opposite conclusion as you did with your hoop-jumping and excuse-making ("Ah, that's only a parable." Didn't Jesus supposedly use parables to teach us truths about god's kingdom?) That's one big problem with the bible; you can squeeze just about any interpretation out of it you want to.

Other than the following question, I'll leave it up to them to challenge you:

Where in the bible does it clearly say that after death, non-believers will simply cease to exist?