Freethought & Rationalism Archive

King Arthur · 08-10-2002, 05:05 AM

Anyone heard of the Los Lunas inscription? It is an inscription in an alphabet very similar to if not actually Paleo-Hebrew that was discovered in New Mexico!

Is it a hoax?

I've seen some of my fellow atheists here use <a href="http://www.uncc.edu/rels/faculty/tabor/tabor.htm" target="_blank">Dr. James D. Tabor's</a> works to support there points.

So, here is what Dr. Tabor has to say about the <a href="http://www.unitedisrael.org/loslunas.html" target="_blank">Los Lunas inscription</a>. Fascinating!

[ August 10, 2002: Message edited by: King Arthur ]

Vorkosigan · 08-10-2002, 05:49 AM

This topic belongs in misc discussions.

King Arthur · 08-10-2002, 06:19 AM

The only people who would know anything about the scholar or Paleo-Hebrew and its relation to the Bible would be right here. Sorry.

Kosh · 08-10-2002, 06:20 AM

Opinions are like assholes...

<a href="http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk/loslunas.html" target="_blank">Opposing Viewpoint</a>

King Arthur · 08-10-2002, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh:
Opinions are like assholes...

<a href="http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk/loslunas.html" target="_blank">Opposing Viewpoint</a>

Who the hell is Virgil Brown?

No. Tabor is much more reputable considering the past opinions of my fellow atheists here and at least one <a href="http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=86" target="_blank">SecWeb article</a>. Tabor's points are definitely much more convincing. Makes one wonder, doesn't it? Wow! Ancient Israelites in America! Sounds somehow Mormonesque, eh?!

[ August 10, 2002: Message edited by: King Arthur ]

Orestes · 08-10-2002, 07:44 AM

I dont see it as being impossible that ancient peoples made it to the Americas. The people of ancient Crete during its economic heyday traded as far away as Ireland and Senegal, and that was hundreds of years prior to when this tablet is dated. So who knows? Maybe some ancient Hebrews did make it to America. Maybe other Meditteranean, middle Eastern, or European people made it as well.

Anyway, is there more information about this tablet and the site its found in?

[ August 10, 2002: Message edited by: Orestes ]

King Arthur · 08-10-2002, 07:55 AM

<a href="http://www.webcom.com/mhc/archaeology/decalogue-introduction.html" target="_blank">http://www.webcom.com/mhc/archaeology/decalogue-introduction.html</a>
<a href="http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/15_home.html" target="_blank">http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/15_home.html</a>
<a href="http://economics.sbs.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/loslunas.html" target="_blank">http://economics.sbs.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/loslunas.html</a>
<a href="http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf043/sf043p02.htm" target="_blank">http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf043/sf043p02.htm</a>

Orestes · 08-10-2002, 08:04 AM

Thanks. Interesting stuff. Especially about the Greek letters intermixed with the Hebrew.

Splat · 08-10-2002, 10:10 AM

This looks like a fake to me.

For starters, I've spent a LOT of time working on New Mexico lava flows, and this just doesn't look right. The markings look way too fresh to be a few thousand years old. Even if they've been scraped to make them more visible, the redish surface of the stone looks way too unaltered. The redish color is a thin layer of oxidation that forms inside cracks on basalt and on the undersides of stones. When they split, fall, or are otherwise exposed, they show that distinctive redish color. If the stone had been wire-brused to remove the patina (desert varnish-magnesium deposited by microorganisms--always forms on the outside of rocks) and lichen, which would certainly have been there if the surface had been exposed for even 500 years, then the redish background should be gray (the color of the unweathered basalt, like the letters themselves). Just to be sure, I went out in my yard and tried it with a piece of lava from an area a hundred miles south of Los Lunas.

Second, I remember reading about two of the other translations, which found the text to be a travelogue describing an exiled Greek whose boat washed out to sea and who ended up walking up the Rio Grande and coming to live among the Pueblos near Los Lunas. The fact that different translators could come up with such wildly different interpretations suggests to me that the text is probably actually meaningless, and we're looking at Rorschachs.

Finally, the chain of evidence that the rock was there in the 1800s is extremely sketchy. My guess would be an educated hoaxer (possibly a Mormon, possibly somebody with a knowledge of classics and a sense of humor or mischief) sometime around the turn of the century. Anybody with the brains, time, and inclination could have assembled a typographical pastiche from published sources and carved it into a rock.

Whatever the case, even if ancient Israelites made it to the New World, they left precious little evidence that they took root.

King Arthur · 08-10-2002, 10:33 AM

Splat, nice rock analysis. I know next to nothing about that kind of stuff and live nowhere near the area, so this was interesting information. You sound like a true skeptic, checking out the facts before making a decision.

Quote:

Originally posted by Splat:
Second, I remember reading about two of the other translations, which found the text to be a travelogue describing an exiled Greek whose boat washed out to sea and who ended up walking up the Rio Grande and coming to live among the Pueblos near Los Lunas. The fact that different translators could come up with such wildly different interpretations suggests to me that the text is probably actually meaningless, and we're looking at Rorschachs.

I realize you may have no desire to learn the Hebrew language or the Paleo-Hebrew alphabet, but I assure you (if you feel you can believe me - few here do even though I feel I've proved myself over and over) that the inscription is definitely Hebrew and the translation given on the <a href="http://www.webcom.com/mhc/archaeology/decalogue-translation.html" target="_blank">Los Lunas Decalogue webpage</a> is quite accurate. Anyone who knows a little Hebrew and can understand the letter connections listed <a href="http://www.webcom.com/mhc/archaeology/decalogue-epigraphy.html" target="_blank">on the Epigraphy page</a> can see that it is actually Hebrew.

The people who said that this was an inscription in Greek about people and the sea had no idea what they were talking about. Several extremely reputable scholars have confirmed the text (e.g. Cyrus Gordon and Charles Pfiffer, etc.).

Whether the inscription is as old as they say is quite another matter.

Quote:

Finally, the chain of evidence that the rock was there in the 1800s is extremely sketchy. My guess would be an educated hoaxer (possibly a Mormon, possibly somebody with a knowledge of classics and a sense of humor or mischief) sometime around the turn of the century. Anybody with the brains, time, and inclination could have assembled a typographical pastiche from published sources and carved it into a rock.

I don't know that much about the chain of evidence. If it does date back that far, however, then it does date back before most anyone would have known of the Paleo-Hebrew alephbeth.

Quote:

Whatever the case, even if ancient Israelites made it to the New World, they left precious little evidence that they took root.

Agreed. Though I do think I remember hearing some story on TV on Dateline, 60 minutes, or some such show where there was a pocket of Jewish Indians living in New Mexico or something like that. There may be something about it online. Who knows but what they are the descendants.

I hear the theme song to The Twilight Zone playing somewhere in the background.

[ August 10, 2002: Message edited by: King Arthur ]

08-10-2002, 05:05 AM	#1
King Arthur Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Camelot Posts: 290	Los Lunas Inscription and Dr. James D Tabor Anyone heard of the Los Lunas inscription? It is an inscription in an alphabet very similar to if not actually Paleo-Hebrew that was discovered in New Mexico! Is it a hoax? I've seen some of my fellow atheists here use <a href="http://www.uncc.edu/rels/faculty/tabor/tabor.htm" target="_blank">Dr. James D. Tabor's</a> works to support there points. So, here is what Dr. Tabor has to say about the <a href="http://www.unitedisrael.org/loslunas.html" target="_blank">Los Lunas inscription</a>. Fascinating! [ August 10, 2002: Message edited by: King Arthur ]</p>

08-10-2002, 07:44 AM	#6
Orestes Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: California Posts: 349	I dont see it as being impossible that ancient peoples made it to the Americas. The people of ancient Crete during its economic heyday traded as far away as Ireland and Senegal, and that was hundreds of years prior to when this tablet is dated. So who knows? Maybe some ancient Hebrews did make it to America. Maybe other Meditteranean, middle Eastern, or European people made it as well. Anyway, is there more information about this tablet and the site its found in? [ August 10, 2002: Message edited by: Orestes ]</p>

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08-10-2002, 05:49 AM	#2
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	This topic belongs in misc discussions.

08-10-2002, 06:19 AM	#3
King Arthur Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Camelot Posts: 290	The only people who would know anything about the scholar or Paleo-Hebrew and its relation to the Bible would be right here. Sorry.

08-10-2002, 06:20 AM	#4
Kosh Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Orions Belt Posts: 3,911	Opinions are like assholes... <a href="http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk/loslunas.html" target="_blank">Opposing Viewpoint</a>

08-10-2002, 07:55 AM	#7
King Arthur Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Camelot Posts: 290	<a href="http://www.webcom.com/mhc/archaeology/decalogue-introduction.html" target="_blank">http://www.webcom.com/mhc/archaeology/decalogue-introduction.html</a> <a href="http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/15_home.html" target="_blank">http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/15_home.html</a> <a href="http://economics.sbs.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/loslunas.html" target="_blank">http://economics.sbs.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/loslunas.html</a> <a href="http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf043/sf043p02.htm" target="_blank">http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf043/sf043p02.htm</a>

08-10-2002, 08:04 AM	#8
Orestes Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: California Posts: 349	Thanks. Interesting stuff. Especially about the Greek letters intermixed with the Hebrew.

08-10-2002, 10:10 AM	#9
Splat Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Hell, PA Posts: 599	This looks like a fake to me. For starters, I've spent a LOT of time working on New Mexico lava flows, and this just doesn't look right. The markings look way too fresh to be a few thousand years old. Even if they've been scraped to make them more visible, the redish surface of the stone looks way too unaltered. The redish color is a thin layer of oxidation that forms inside cracks on basalt and on the undersides of stones. When they split, fall, or are otherwise exposed, they show that distinctive redish color. If the stone had been wire-brused to remove the patina (desert varnish-magnesium deposited by microorganisms--always forms on the outside of rocks) and lichen, which would certainly have been there if the surface had been exposed for even 500 years, then the redish background should be gray (the color of the unweathered basalt, like the letters themselves). Just to be sure, I went out in my yard and tried it with a piece of lava from an area a hundred miles south of Los Lunas. Second, I remember reading about two of the other translations, which found the text to be a travelogue describing an exiled Greek whose boat washed out to sea and who ended up walking up the Rio Grande and coming to live among the Pueblos near Los Lunas. The fact that different translators could come up with such wildly different interpretations suggests to me that the text is probably actually meaningless, and we're looking at Rorschachs. Finally, the chain of evidence that the rock was there in the 1800s is extremely sketchy. My guess would be an educated hoaxer (possibly a Mormon, possibly somebody with a knowledge of classics and a sense of humor or mischief) sometime around the turn of the century. Anybody with the brains, time, and inclination could have assembled a typographical pastiche from published sources and carved it into a rock. Whatever the case, even if ancient Israelites made it to the New World, they left precious little evidence that they took root.

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