Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sullster · 06-21-2003, 10:01 AM

At this very moment hundreds of people are looking at a window on a hospital in Milton, MA, which they say contains a vision of Mary. Utterly irrational superstition to me.

What I want to know is, what is the story about this Marymania anyway? Is this some remnant of goddess worship which lives on in the catholic theology? Why was a woman from the Middle East named Mary anyway? Isn't the claim that she is "the mother of god", the most absurd concept there is? A human woman is the mother of god?

I do not get it! Seeing people crowded around a hospital and looking at condensation inside a window and thinking it is an imaginary female being astounds me.

I always recall Nietzsche's line which said, "There is not enough love in the world to waste it on imaginary beings".

Magus55 · 06-21-2003, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sullster
At this very moment hundreds of people are looking at a window on a hospital in Milton, MA, which they say contains a vision of Mary. Utterly irrational superstition to me.

What I want to know is, what is the story about this Marymania anyway? Is this some remnant of goddess worship which lives on in the catholic theology? Why was a woman from the Middle East named Mary anyway? Isn't the claim that she is "the mother of god", the most absurd concept there is? A human woman is the mother of god?

I do not get it! Seeing people crowded around a hospital and looking at condensation inside a window and thinking it is an imaginary female being astounds me.

I always recall Nietzsche's line which said, "There is not enough love in the world to waste it on imaginary beings".

Yes, Mary worship was indoctrinated by the Catholic Church ( i.e - it has zero biblical support). Catholics exalt her to goddess of heaven, which God specifically punishes the Israelites for worshiping a "goddess of heaven" in the OT. Mary is also proclaimed co-redemptix and mediator for humanity. I know you don't believe in Jesus being God, but the RCC has raised Mary, a human - sinful woman, to the status of God. The Pope has even bowed down to Statues of Mary. Which is idolatry right there.

lpetrich · 06-21-2003, 01:41 PM

Yes, she's even called "Queen of the Universe" on occasion -- there was a thread on that subject that got moved over to ~E~.

And yes, she is a mother-goddess figure -- even though she does not get much mention in the Bible.

And it must be said that she's rather unassertive and wimpy by the standards of some pagan female deities. Like Artemis, who was depicted as being very vindictive, and Kali, who has had a traditional taste for human sacrifice.

lpetrich · 06-21-2003, 01:52 PM

As to the name "Maria", it is likely Hebrew "Miriam" modified to sound like the feminine of "Marius" (Latin name that became modern-Italian "Mario").

It eventually acquired the spelling variant "Marija" in eastern Europe, and such variants as French "Marie" and English "Mary".

emotional · 06-21-2003, 03:26 PM

Catholicism just preserves more of the original paganism than the Protestant sects do. Christianity is a pagan-based religion, pure and simple, though Christians may forthrightly deny it.

The connection has not been lost on the real pagans. From http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/2310/Christ.htm :

Quote:

Many Wiccans seem to be under the mistaken impression that in order to be a Witch or a Pagan, they must either renounce or greatly distance themselves from the Christ. This is totally fallacious. Gerald Gardner himself, the founder of modern Wicca, declared just the opposite:

It is usually said that to be made a witch one must abjure Christianity; this is not true; but they naturally would not receive into their ranks anyone who was a very narrow Christian. They do not think that the real Jesus was literally the Son of God, but are quite prepared to accept that he was one of the Enlightened Ones, or Holy Men. That is the reason why witches do not think they were hypocrites "in times of persecution" for going to church and honoring Christ, especially as so many of the old Sun-hero myths have been incorporated into Christianity; while others might bow to the Madonna, who is closely akin to their goddess of heaven.

Doreen Valiente, another pioneer in the modern Craft revival, even related that she knew of one Wiccan priestess who had a picture of Jesus in her private sanctuary because of the honor and esteem in which she held him. Another witch, interviewed by Margot Adler in her book , went so far as to declare her belief that the Christ was an "avatar of the Great Mother--a Dionysus incarnation," and she further stated her belief in the validity of the sacrificial character of the Mass, even to the extent that she would occasionally attend church in order to partake of the body and blood of the risen god. This simply demonstrates that there are at least some within the Neo-Pagan and Wiccan communities who have attempted to come to terms with Jesus and his theological implications in their own personal walk of faith without resorting to negative reaction to anything that even hints at Christian influence. But, alas, they do, nevertheless, seem to be in the minority.

AJ113 · 06-21-2003, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Yes, Mary worship was indoctrinated by the Catholic Church ( i.e - it has zero biblical support). Catholics exalt her to goddess of heaven, which God specifically punishes the Israelites for worshiping a "goddess of heaven" in the OT. Mary is also proclaimed co-redemptix and mediator for humanity. I know you don't believe in Jesus being God, but the RCC has raised Mary, a human - sinful woman, to the status of God. The Pope has even bowed down to Statues of Mary. Which is idolatry right there.

Yes, Jesus worship was indoctrinated by the Catholic Church ( i.e - it has zero biblical support). Catholics exalt him to god of heaven, which God specifically punishes the Israelites for worshiping "false idols" in the OT. Jesus is also proclaimed co-redemptix and mediator for humanity. The RCC has raised Jesus, a human - sinful man, to the status of God. The Pope has even bowed down to Statues of Jesus. Which is idolatry right there.

Amen.

Magus55 · 06-21-2003, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AJ113
Yes, Jesus worship was indoctrinated by the Catholic Church ( i.e - it has zero biblical support). Catholics exalt him to god of heaven, which God specifically punishes the Israelites for worshiping "false idols" in the OT. Jesus is also proclaimed co-redemptix and mediator for humanity. The RCC has raised Jesus, a human - sinful man, to the status of God. The Pope has even bowed down to Statues of Jesus. Which is idolatry right there.

Amen.

Jesus being worshipped has Biblical support, sorry - your sarcastic attempt at being funny fails.

AJ113 · 06-22-2003, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Jesus being worshipped has Biblical support, sorry - your sarcastic attempt at being funny fails.

Oh, yeah? Ever read the New World Translation?

Howard · 06-22-2003, 07:58 AM

Like many non-Biblical devices that the Catholic Church uses, such as confession, the exaltation of Mary is a brilliant marketing strategy. It provides women with a female quasi-deity, someone who is ostensibly understanding and sympathetic to their special needs and problems. The Abrahamic religions are extremely male-dominated, almost to the point of being misogynistic, and the Mary figure gives the church an added sales tool.

The primary purpose of any institution, whether it is political, religious, academic or corporate, is to maintain and extend its power, influence and income. In that regard, the Catholic Church is arguably the most successful institution in the history of the world - in no small part because of Mary worship..

sullster · 06-22-2003, 09:25 AM

Thanks to all for the insights about Mary. It makes sense that she is a bone thrown to women by the all male hierarchy of the church. It likewise makes sense that she is unassertive and basically just appears in silly out of the way places.

The boys of the church don't sem to want her to get too powerful and start demanding things. What if Mary showed up and demanded that women be priests? If a Mary showed up on a window pane demanding that, I will bet that the church boys would be quite miffed at her.

06-21-2003, 10:01 AM	#1
sullster Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: North of Boston Posts: 1,392	Explanations for Mary needed At this very moment hundreds of people are looking at a window on a hospital in Milton, MA, which they say contains a vision of Mary. Utterly irrational superstition to me. What I want to know is, what is the story about this Marymania anyway? Is this some remnant of goddess worship which lives on in the catholic theology? Why was a woman from the Middle East named Mary anyway? Isn't the claim that she is "the mother of god", the most absurd concept there is? A human woman is the mother of god? I do not get it! Seeing people crowded around a hospital and looking at condensation inside a window and thinking it is an imaginary female being astounds me. I always recall Nietzsche's line which said, "There is not enough love in the world to waste it on imaginary beings".

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06-21-2003, 01:41 PM	#3
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Yes, she's even called "Queen of the Universe" on occasion -- there was a thread on that subject that got moved over to ~E~. And yes, she is a mother-goddess figure -- even though she does not get much mention in the Bible. And it must be said that she's rather unassertive and wimpy by the standards of some pagan female deities. Like Artemis, who was depicted as being very vindictive, and Kali, who has had a traditional taste for human sacrifice.

06-21-2003, 01:52 PM	#4
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	As to the name "Maria", it is likely Hebrew "Miriam" modified to sound like the feminine of "Marius" (Latin name that became modern-Italian "Mario"). It eventually acquired the spelling variant "Marija" in eastern Europe, and such variants as French "Marie" and English "Mary".

06-22-2003, 07:58 AM	#9
Howard Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Orlando, Fl Posts: 5,864	Like many non-Biblical devices that the Catholic Church uses, such as confession, the exaltation of Mary is a brilliant marketing strategy. It provides women with a female quasi-deity, someone who is ostensibly understanding and sympathetic to their special needs and problems. The Abrahamic religions are extremely male-dominated, almost to the point of being misogynistic, and the Mary figure gives the church an added sales tool. The primary purpose of any institution, whether it is political, religious, academic or corporate, is to maintain and extend its power, influence and income. In that regard, the Catholic Church is arguably the most successful institution in the history of the world - in no small part because of Mary worship..

06-22-2003, 09:25 AM	#10
sullster Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: North of Boston Posts: 1,392	Thanks to all for the insights about Mary. It makes sense that she is a bone thrown to women by the all male hierarchy of the church. It likewise makes sense that she is unassertive and basically just appears in silly out of the way places. The boys of the church don't sem to want her to get too powerful and start demanding things. What if Mary showed up and demanded that women be priests? If a Mary showed up on a window pane demanding that, I will bet that the church boys would be quite miffed at her.

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