Cronus Malor

What do you guys think of the Bible forseeing the Isrealites being scattered, and then uniting again? Also, what do you think of the idea some people have that Russia attacking Isreal will happen, as foretold in the Bible?

Jerry Smith

Cronus,

Undoubtedly you will receive more and better replies here than mine, but here is my two cents:

You ask what we think of the Bible forseeing the scattering and re-gathering of the Israelites. You didn't cite a particular book/chapter/verse, but some of the references that I believe you are talking about and can recall were ones written after the Babylonian exile. Therefore it wasn't necessarily FOREsight - it could just as well have been HINDsight. That the events that fit that description recurred later in history is not a big surprise.

You ask if we expect the Russians to invade Israel 'as foretold in the Bible'.. That's a pretty big stretch.. There is speculation among some pre-millenialist Christians that some Bible prophecies should be interpreted in that way, but I don't think anyone takes that idea very seriously. We have to let the Russians decide whether to do that or not.

My two cents (because I'm bored & tired of lurking here)

Jerry

Apikorus

Several issues:

• The Israelites are not truly reunited. If we are willing to elide the issue of who is truly an Israelite and content ourselves with identifying modern Israelites with halakhic Jews (that is, Jews according to rabbinic law), then we still must acknowledge that about half of all Jews in the world today live outside the state of Israel.
• The Hebrew Bible foresees not just the political reconstitution of some nation which in some way identifies itself with (or evokes comparison to) ancient Israel, but rather the resuscitation of the Davidic kingdom, the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem on har habayit, and the resumption of animal sacrifices under a consecrated Levitical priesthood. (There are some rabbinic writings which discuss the possibility that animal sacrifices might not be part of the cultus in the Third Temple, but these reflect minority opinions.) None of these things has happened; none of these things is about to happen.
• Though it might be argued that "God works in mysterious ways", history shows that the reemergence of the modern state of Israel was accomplished via the triple treif "miracle" of secular Zionist fighters, Czech armaments, and Reform Jewish American dollars. Do you figure this is what the biblical prophets had in mind?
• The establishment of the modern state of Israel was achieved at a cost of dispossessing and disinheriting some 750,000 Palestinians. This group has festered in refugee camps for over 50 years now in pathetic squalor. They are often subject to extreme harrassment by an oppressive, occupying force. (That is not to say that the blame for the Palestinians' plight rests with Israel, or that it is even sensible to assign blame, but merely to point out that there is a dark side to the "miracle" of modern Israel.) Of course, right-wing fundamentalists (both Jewish and Christian) readily find support for the expulsion and even the extermination of the Palestinians in the pages of the Bible. (You know - clear the land of all those terrible Canaanites et al.)
• Perhaps I am being obtuse, but I don't recall ever reading anything in the Bible about Russia attacking Israel. Could you please provide a citation to which "scripture" you mean?

[ January 28, 2002: Message edited by: Apikorus ]</p>

lpetrich

It's hard to improve on Apikorus's comments; I've seen similar claims of fulfilled prophecy, and they usually involve some legendary nation like Gog being identified with Russia.

But if one wanted to predict that Russia would attack, then it would be a simple matter to mention that nation by name.

As to the building of a Third Temple, there is the simple problem that the Dome of the Rock is in the way. And I doubt that Israel's government will want to provoke the world's Muslims by allowing the conversion of the Dome of the Rock into a Third Temple, let alone the destruction of it.

However, that has not stopped some from trying to set up for some grand-opening animal sacrifices; some have tried to breed for that sacrifice an all-red heifer without a trace of other-colored hair. So far, they have managed to breed a reddish-brown one with a few white tail hairs.

So a prophecy of a future rebuilt and active Temple might be described as self-fulfilling.

Jack the Bodiless

I think it's ludicrous. It says far more about the paranoid fantasies of far-Right fundies than about real-world politics. WHY should Russia invade Israel? Because they're the Bad Guys and have to do it because they're evil.

babelfish

I've heard some apologists interpret "Gog" as being Russia. Here are some Ezekiel verses from the KJV:

Ezekiel 38:14 Ezekiel 38 Ezekiel 38:13-15 - Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?

Ezekiel 38:16 Ezekiel 38 Ezekiel 38:15-17 - And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

Ezekiel 38:18 Ezekiel 38 Ezekiel 38:17-19 - And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.

Ezekiel 39:1 Ezekiel 39 Ezekiel 39:1-2 - Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

Apikorus

Why isn't Gog France? Or Germany? Or Sri Lanka?

babelfish

I think their interpretation is left over from the Cold War, and they haven't gotten around to updating it yet.

thedoc

This is all copied from a website I found. A perspective on who Magog is.

Many ancient sources have clearly identified "Magog" as referring to the Scythians which were the ancestors of the true Russians.

Hesiod, "the father of Greek didactic poetry" identified Magog with the Scythians and southern Russia in the 7th century B.C. (Hesiod was a contemporary of Ezekiel.)

Herodotus of Harlicarnassus, known as "Father of History" wrote much about the descendants of Magog by their Greek name, the Scythians, in the 5th century B.C. Archaeological discoveries have confirmed Herodotus' reports.

Flavius Josephus records that the Magogians were called "Scythians" by the Greeks. Philo, in the 1st century, identifies Magog with southern Russia.

Mojaz

Very interesting.

If the state of Israel isn't the Israelites being united again, then I don't know what is.

The Bible foresaw that Israel would have lots of enemies who would rise up against her. If history continues at its current pace, we will see an all-out military attack on Israel within our lifetimes... provided we're not too old.

In terms of Russia, that's just pure speculation. Too much speculation leads to headaches.