Pomp

foursquareman,

is that alright?

Of course it's all right. I don't agree with your reasons for worshipping your god, but they're your reasons, and I can't fault you for being motivated by them.

foursquareman

Keith Russell

Foursquare asked:

'Is that alright'?

No, it most certainly is not all right, though you are free to engage in 'not all right' behaviours--provided you violate no one else's rights (life, liberty, justice) in the process.

Religion is contradictory in nature. Claims of faith contradict our knowledge, contradict the evidence, contradict reason, and contradict reality. Believing that a 'perfect' being could have created 'imperfect' creatures is only one such flaw.

That we have free will proves that the future is not known, which proves that God cannot be omniscient.

Even if a 'Creator God' did endow us with the ability to choose from multiple options, the options which are available to us were created by God, so whatever evil is available for us to choose or reject, is from God--if God made existence. Think of the evils committed by some people over the course of human history, and ask why God would create such options in the first place, even if human beings were given the power to reject such options...

So, to reject reason in place of faith, to reject one's pride and self-esteem to 'worship' (and I still don't think we have defined 'worship' satisfactorily) to believe that a perfect being needs supplicants, and especially to accept the Christian notion that subverts justice (that this perfect being (Jesus/God) needed to be sacrificed to save us poor, wretched, unworthy sinners) cannot be 'all right'.

To the extent that one accepts any miraculous (by definition, impossible) claims, one is left utterly defenseless against any other claims anyone else might wish to make.

If you'll believe in God and miracles, or if you believe that Jesus was God, and that Jesus died on the cross to save humanity from its sins, if you believe that Jesus rose from the dead, and has prepared a place for you in heaven after you die, or that Allah dictated the Q'Ran to Mohammud,--why not beleive that Jim Jones has a personal hotline to the Almighty? Why not believe that Benny Hin really can heal his followers in His name? Why not believe that Pat Robertson needs your money to oppose pornography, abortion rights, women's rights, and homosexuality? Why not believe that the Taliban are sanctioned by God to kill the infidels/traitors to the word of God?

Why not believe any of these things, and more?

Reason is the process by which we apprehend reality/existence/truth. Only through reason can we answer questions such as 'why'.

Faith leaves one completely unable to answer the above questions. One may accept them or reject them, but one does so for no reason, but instead based solely on arbitrary whim.

And that most certainly cannot be all right.

Keith Russell.

Perchance

I think this is a large part of the reason I don't worship (beyond thinking about the silliness of it constantly), and why I was bored out of my skull the few times I went to church. There is nothing about the sermons or the hymns that catches at my emotions, which might persuade me to accept this as a work of art and relax for a while.

I think worship can be a work of art, but most Christian worship I've seen or been exposed to is not. And, too, what is "a work of art" might depend on the individual. For me, it would need bright colors (rather than the antiseptic white of most churches I've been in), gentler images than a figure dying on a cross, flowers, and beautiful poetry.

And even then, if someone pretended that a higher power actually existed and was pleased by all this, rather than that it was beautiful and should exist for its own sake, I don't know if I could keep my laughter to myself.

-Perchance.

foursquareman

Dear Keith,

free will does not necessarily prove the future is unknown. The future could still be known, it just means that the future that is known was created by us. Also, what happens if (as I believe) God is not subject to time. Then that would be a whole other matter.

The options are there, choose good, or don't. Thats all. You can't get yourself to heaven if you aren't perfect without God's help. What would be wrong would be to create robots programmed to love, and then say, these robots chose to love me.

If you don't believe, fine. Don't talk about garbage. Just because you don't understand doesn't mean it is silly.

Jobar

Foursquareman- While I am glad to support your *right* to hold whatever ideas and opinions that you like, the fact that this is Internet Infidels means that the large majority of us think your ideas are extremely wrong! And Keith has given you a wonderful and simple and understandable presentation of the reasons why your beliefs are wrong.

I'll add another. Why do you think it is that you are a Christian? And why is it that the theology that seems so simple and correct to you, is incomprehensible, even evil gobbletygook to, say, Muslims? Or Hindus? Or any of the thousands of different religions found on Earth? Why is it that their theology- which they are willing to fight and die for, and to live by- is incomprehensible and even sometimes evil to you?

Could it simply be that what you are taught when very small and empty of knowledge, sticks to you like glue, no matter how sensible or silly the teaching?

Keith- just to let you know I am saving your post. I hope you post here often- that was excellent writing!

foursquareman

Not necessarily. I see people converting in their thousands. People who didn't grow up in christian homes. I don't believe we are instilled with our beliefs, I believe they grow in us, as a product of our choices.

I don't mind if you think I'm wrong, but to ack as if you know the answers, and everyone else is ignorant because they believe something else, is stupid arrogance.

Philosoft

<strong>Quoth foursquareman:

I don't believe we are instilled with our beliefs, I believe they grow in us, as a product of our choices.</strong>

This may be true, but you've got a lot of statistics to overcome to show that it's more than wishful thinking as of now. The percentage of children of Christian parents who become Christians themselves is absurdly high.

foursquareman

this fact would only throw me off if I didn;t believe christianity was the truth

Doubting Didymus

That fact should throw you off because it is true of ALL religions, not just christianity. Statistically, people have whatever beliefs their parents had. This is a big problem for theism, as it proves that hardly anyone chooses a faith based on truth. They choose because of inheritance.