Radorth

Given the safe presumption that there were at least 1042 apostate Christians in existence before 150, how come we have not one single writing saying one or more of the following?

1. I never heard of any written gospel story being circulated until 120.

2. The whole story was made up from stuff Paul wrote.

3. Everybody knows Jesus didn't really rise from the dead.

4. We took an old diary and expanded on it. After we wrote Luke's gospel, people started believing it really happened.

5. The church leaders paid us a lot of money to shut up, but said we would fall down dead if we didn't tithe on it.

Radorth

lpetrich

Examples of apostates?

And it must be noted that skepticism and critical thinking were not very common back then; the writers of the New Testament showed no sign of cowering in fear that someone would debunk them.

[ September 27, 2002: Message edited by: lpetrich ]</p>

Radorth

You got that right.

Rad

Gooch's dad

Radorth,

Give me an example of ANY claim that was debunked by skeptics in the first century.

I don't think the Greater Palestinian Society of Skeptics and Rationalists has left much in the way of a written legacy, if you get my drift.

Cheers,

-Kelly

Kosh

Does anyone have reference to any ca. 7th century documents debunking the claims of Islam?

Radorth

Why should they if it happened?

Actually Muhammed himself had a couple folks knocked off, but they were not ex- believers. You're missing the point maybe? This is one of the reasons I believe the early accounts of Muhammed are essentially history. Don't you?

Rad

Kosh

I'm not missing any points. Do you believe then that Muhammed was taken up into Heaven?

Vorkosigan

You know of their extant writings?

Fortuna

Well, I believe that we do have a second hand telling of a group of Gnostics from he 120s who espoused #3, that the ressurection was not a literal or bodily rising from the dead.

Hippolytus d'Rome ('Refutation des Heresies', V, II) 12:20

mots anglais - "Concerning this they [referring to the Gnostic sect of the Nassenis of 120-140C.] handed down this passage in the Gospel inscribed according to Thomas speaking thus:
'He who seeks me will find me in children from seven years old there concealed, I shall in the fourteenth age be manifested.
This is not of Christ but of Hippocrates speaking these words: 'A child of seven years is half of a father.' And so it is that they place the originative nature of the universe in causative seed having ascertained from Hippocrates that a child of seven years old is half of a father, say in fourteen years he is manifested according to Thomas."

He includes this passage about them in a section discussing Gnostics who do not accept a bodily ressurection but a spiritual one, which course he considers heretical.

Of course it is second hand.

Plebe

From the Infidels Library
<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/marshall_gauvin/did_jesus_really_live.html" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/marshall_gauvin/did_jesus_really_live.html</a>
.."The question, "Did Jesus Christ Really Live?" goes to the very root of the conflict between reason and faith; and upon its determination depends, to some degree, the decision as to whether religion or humanity shall rule the world. Whether Christ did, or did not live, has nothing at all to do with what the churches teach, or with what we believe, It is wholly a matter of evidence. It is a question of science. The question is -- what does history say? And that question must be settled in the court of historical criticism. If the thinking world is to hold to the position that Christ was a real character, there must be sufficient evidence to warrant that belief. If no evidence for his existence can be found; if history returns the verdict that his name is not inscribed upon her scroll, if it be found that his story was created by art and ingenuity, like the stories of fictitious heroes, he will have to take his place with the host of other demigods whose fancied lives and deeds make up the mythology of the world."