Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mad Kally · 02-10-2002, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Meta =>The sad part is that they don't require people to have licences to spout opinions about social sciences. Take a course in social research methods!

Gee, I hate to disappoint you Meta, but I do have a license to spout opinions.

edited to add: Can't you ever just say something without copy and pasting all that bullshit?

[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: Mad Kally ]

Metacrock · 02-10-2002, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:
Moon--

What do you call people that irrationally believe a mystical fairy god king magically blinked everything into existence?

Meta=>I call them people who have a different beleif system than I. Apparently in your mind that is just another term for "mental illness." Now what do shrinks call people who feel that those who disagree withe them are out to get them and are arayed against them?

Quote:

Or people who truly believe that such a fictional creature trifurcated into flesh in order to kill himself as a sacrifice to himself in order to save mankind from himself for disobeying him in the first place? Or worse, what do you call "moderate" people who don't really believe any of the "nasty stuff," but still irrationally believe that "something" is there that created them and will greet them in a place called heaven when they die?

MEta =>first that's just begging the question. All you are really saying is "anyone who has a different world view from myself has to be nuts." Secondly, you aren't even trying to state Christian bleiefs accurately or fairly.

Quote:

Regardless, this thread's topic is to the psychology involved, so unless you have something to say about that, we'll take it as read that your opinion is the theists you know are not "insane," yes?

Meta =>In other words you want to just make the assumption that you are right (still have no data btw) and any challenge to that assumption is just off topic.

Quote:

And, just for clarity's sake, I am not accusing anyone of being insane in the clinical sense, though the irrational nature of the belief system certainly qualifies, in my lay opinion, as a psychosis, which is why the question was, primarily, to any psychologists who might be here and/or to those with clincial experience (such as Mad Kally).

MEta => By what strech of logic do you imagine you have the right to draw this irronious link form that which you do not believe to mental illness? Who says that if it isn't part of your basic world view that in itself is enough to declair it mentally ill?

Moreover, I say religioius belief has presumption. the idea that the universe just poped up out of nothing sounds pretty insane to me. I think you are the crazy. You need to be locked up cause your views are not up to the standard I set for sanity, which is that they must agree with me.

Mad Kally · 02-10-2002, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Meta=>>
Moreover, I say religioius belief has presumption. the idea that the universe just poped up out of nothing sounds pretty insane to me. I think you are the crazy. You need to be locked up cause your views are not up to the standard I set for sanity, which is that they must agree with me.

Thank you for providing proof of your delusional psychosis. My psycho mom would love you.

Metacrock · 02-10-2002, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:
This whole argument is just due to the fallacy of false cause. The logic is absurd, it goes like this:

1) Some religious people have mental problems.

2) I consider religious ideas to be crazy

3) Therefore religion causes menal illness or is at least the product of it.

Of course the real proof of that should be in the functionality of religious believers. When we study the data we find that they have more functionality and fewer incidents of depression or other mental problems then non bleievers. So it's a silly hypothesis and is merely beased upon trying to elivate personal likes and dislikes to the level of scientific proof through nothing more than oft repeated steriotypes and opinions.

Here's some more data:

1)Religious experince is not corrollated to mental illness

It is amazing how many atheists think that any sort of religious feeling is a prelude to schitzephrinia, delusions, and other mental pathologies. But the studies show there is no corrollation at all. Now there are cases where mental illness has conicided with religous thoughts, or where delusions took the form of voices in the head claiming to be God and so on, but even in these cases theree is no corrollation between the patients past history of religious belief and delustions. It just happens that at certain times mentally ill people have delusions that involve religious ideas, but it does not follow that religious thinking is a product of mental illness

a) Religious ideas and practice not corrollated with pathology

J. Gartner, D.B. Allen, The Faith Factor: An Annotated Bibliography of Systematic Reviews And Clinical Research on Spiritual Subjects Vol. II, David B. Larson M.D., Natiional Institute for Health Research Dec. 1993, p. 3090

"As for psychosis, the authors notied that those with psychotic ideation are not necessarily preoccupied with religious concerns, nor do they frequently attend religious services; rather they are less frequent attenders than those in the general population..."

b) No corrollation between mystical experince and mental illness.

Childhood Transpersonal Childhood Experiences of Higher States of Consciousness: Literature Review and Theoretical Integration

Caird
(1987) "found no relationship between reported mystical experience and neuroticism, psychoticism and lying while Spanos and Moretti (1988) found no relationship between a measure of mystical experience and psychopathology."
Quote:

The experience of pure consciousness is typically called "mystical". The essence of the mystical experience has been debated for years (Horne, 1982). It is often held that "mysticism is a manifestation of something which is at the root of all religions (p. 16; Happold, 1963)." The empirical assessment of the mystical experience in psychology has occurred to a limited extent. Scientific interest in the mystical experience was broadened with the research on psychoactive drugs. The popular belief was that such drugs mimicked either mystical states and/or schizophrenic ones (reviewed in Lukoff, Zanger & Lu, 1990). Although there is likely some physiological similarity as well as phenomenological recent work has shown clear differences. For instance, Oxman, Rosenberg, Schnurr, Tucker and Gala (1988) analyzed 66 autobiographical accounts of schizophrenia, hallucinogenic drug experiences, and mystical ecstasy as well as 28 control accounts of important personal experiences. They concluded that the:

"subjective experiences of schizophrenia, hallucinogenic drug-induced states, and mystical ecstasy are more different from one another than alike."(p. 401).

2) Religioius belief indicative of good mental health

a)Religous Pepole are More Self Actualized

Dr. Michale Nielson,Ph.D. Psychology and religion.
"http://www.psywww.com/psyrelig/ukraine/index.htm"

Quote:

"What makes someone psychologically healthy? This was the question that guided Maslow's work. He saw too much emphasis in psychology on negative behavior and thought, and wanted to supplant it with a psychology of mental health. To this end, he developed a hierarchy of needs, ranging from lower level physiological needs, through love and belonging, to self- actualization. Self-actualized people are those who have reached their potential for self-development. Maslow claimed that mystics are more likely to be self-actualized than are other people. Mystics also are more likely to have had "peak experiences," experiences in which the person feels a sense of ecstasy and oneness with the universe. Although his hierarchy of needs sounds appealing, researchers have had difficulty finding support for his theory."

Gagenback

Quote:

In terms of psychological correlates, well-being and happiness has been associated with mystical experiences,(Mathes, Zevon, Roter, Joerger, 1982; Hay & Morisy, 1978; Greeley, 1975; Alexander, Boyer, & Alexander, 1987) as well as self-actualization (Hood, 1977; Alexander, 1992). Regarding the latter, the developer of self-actualization believed that even one spontaneous peak or transcendental experience could promote self-actualization. Correlational research has supported this relationship. In a recent statistical meta-analysis of causal designs with Transcendental Meditation (TM) controlling for length of treatment and strength of study design, it was found that: TM enhances self-actualization on standard inventories significantly more than recent clinically devised relaxation/meditation procedures not explicitly directed toward transcendence [mystical experience] (p. 1; Alexander, 1992)

b) Christian Repentence Promotes Healthy Mindedness

william James
Gilford lectures

Quote:

"Within the Christian body, for which repentance of sins has from the beginning been the critical religious act, healthy-mindedness has always come forward with its milder interpretation. Repentance according to such healthy-minded Christians means getting away from the sin, not groaning and writhing over its commission. The Catholic practice of confession and absolution is in one of its aspects little more than a systematic method of keeping healthy-mindedness on top. By it a man's accounts with evil are periodically squared and audited, so that he may start the clean page with no old debts inscribed. Any Catholicwill tell us how clean and fresh and free he feels after the purging operation. Martin Luther by no means belonged to the healthy-minded type in the radical sense in which we have discussed it, and be repudiated priestly absolution for sin. Yet in this matter of repentance he had some very healthy-minded ideas, due in the main to the largeness of his conception of God. -..."

e. Recent Empirical Studies Prove Religious Believers have less depression, mental illness lower Divorce rate, ect.

J. Gartner, D.B. Allen, The Faith Factor: An Annotated Bibliography of Systematic Reviews And Clinical Research on Spiritual Subjects Vol. II, David B. Larson M.D., Natiional Institute for Health Research Dec. 1993, p. 3090

Quote:

"The Reviews identified 10 areas of clinical staus in whihc research has demonstrated benefits of religious commitment: (1) Depression, (2) Suicide, (3) Delinquency, (4) Mortality, (5) Alchohol use (6) Drug use, (7) Well-being, (8) Divorce and martital satisfaction, (9) Physical Health Status, and (10) Mental health outcome studies....The authors underscored the need for additional longitudinal studies featuring health outcomes. Although there were few, such studies tended to show mental health benefit. Similarly, in the case of teh few longevity or mortality outcome studies, the benefit was in favor of those who attended chruch...at least 70% of the time, increased religious commitment was associated with improved coping and protection from problems."

[The authors conducted a literature search of over 2000 publications to glean the current state of empirical study data in areas of Spirituality and health]

2) Shrinks assume religious experience Normative.
Dr. Jorge W.F. Amaro, Ph.D., Head psychology dept. Sao Paulo

[ <a href="http://www.psywww.com/psyrelig/amaro.html]" target="_blank">http://www.psywww.com/psyrelig/amaro.html]</a>

a) Unbeliever is the Sick Soul

"A non spiritualized person is a sick person, even if she doesn't show any symptom described by traditional medicine. The supernatural and the sacredness result from an elaboration on the function of omnipotence by the mind and can be found both in atheist and religious people. It is an existential function in humankind and the uses each one makes of it will be the measure for one's understanding."

b. psychotheraputic discipline re-evalutes Frued's criticism of religion

Quote:

Amaro--

"Nowadays there are many who do not agree with the notion that religious behavior a priori implies a neurotic state to be decoded and eliminated by analysis (exorcism). That reductionism based on the first works by Freud is currently under review. The psychotherapist should be limited to observing the uses their clients make of the representations of the image of God in their subjective world, that is, the uses of the function of omnipotence. Among the several authors that subscribe to this position are Odilon de Mello Franco (12), .... W. R. Bion (2), one of the most notable contemporary psychoanalysts, ..."

[sources sited by Amaro BION, W. R. Aten��o e interpreta��o (Attention and interpretation). Rio de Janeiro: Imago, 1973.

MELLO FRANCO, O. de. Religious experience and psychoanalysis: from man-as-god to man-with-god. Int. J. of Psychoanalysis (1998) 79,]

c) This relationship is so strong it led to the creation of a whole discipline in psychology; transactionalism

Neilson on Maslow

Quote:

"One outgrowth of Maslow's work is what has become known as Transpersonal Psychology, in which the focus is on the spiritual well-being of individuals, and values are advocated steadfastly. Transpersonal psychologists seek to blend Eastern religion (Buddhism, Hinduism, etc.) or Western (Christian, Jewish or Moslem) mysticism with a form of modern psychology. Frequently, the transpersonal psychologist rejects psychology's adoption of various scientific methods used in the natural sciences."
"The influence of the transpersonal movement remains small, but there is evidence that it is growing. I suspect that most psychologists would agree with Maslow that much of psychology -- including the psychology of religion -- needs an improved theoretical foundation."

3) Religion is positive factor in physical health.

"Doctrors find Power of faith hard to ignore
By Usha Lee McFarling
Knight Ridder News Service
(Dec. 23, 1998)
<a href="Http://www.tennessean.com/health/stories/98/trends1223.htm" target="_blank">Http://www.tennessean.com/health/stories/98/trends1223.htm</a>

Quote:

"Some suspect that the benefits of faith and churchgoing largely boil down to having social support — a factor that, by itself, has been shown to improve health. But the health effects of religion can't wholly be explained by social support. If, for example, you compare people who aren't religious with people who gather regularly for more secular reasons, the religious group is healthier. In Israel, studies comparing religious with secular kibbutzim showed the religious communes were healthier."Is this all a social effect you could get from going to the bridge club? It doesn't seem that way," said Koenig, who directs Duke's Center for the Study of Religion/Spirituality and Health .Another popular explanation for the link between religion and health is sin avoidance."

"The religious might be healthier because they are less likely to smoke, drink and engage in risky sex and more likely to wear seat belts.But when studies control for those factors, say by comparing religious nonsmokers with nonreligious nonsmokers, the religious factors still stand out. Compare smokers who are religious with those who are not and the churchgoing smokers have blood pressure as low as nonsmokers. "If you're a smoker, make sure you get your butt in church," said Larson, who conducted the smoking study."

see also: he Faith Factor: An Annotated Bibliography of Systematic Reviews And Clinical Research on Spiritual Subjects Vol. II, David B. Larson M.D., Natiional Institute for Health Research Dec. 1993 For data on a many studies which support this conclusion.

4) Religion is the most powerful Factor in well being.

Poloma and Pendelton The Faith Factor: An Annotated Bibliography of Systematic Reviews And Clinical Research on Spiritual Subjects Vol. II, David B. Larson M.D., Natiional Institute for Health Research Dec. 1993, p. 3290.

Quote:

"The authors found that religious satisfaction was the most powerful predicter of existential well being. The degree to which an individual felt close to God was the most important factor in terms of existential well-being. While frequency of prayer contributed to general life satisfaction and personal happiness. As a result of their study the authors concluded that it would be important to look at a combindation of religious items, including prayer, religionship with God, and other measures of religious experince to begin to adequately clearlify the associations of religious committment with general well-being."

Mad Kally · 02-10-2002, 09:03 AM

Do you hear voices too?

November 7th - TBN's Fall 2000 Praise-A-Thon

Quote:

The Lord said to me audibly, I heard it. People I don't often hear the Lord's voice audibly, but I heard the Lord's voice audibly. He said "Tell them - time is running out". Then I heard another voice, that I believe is the voice of the Holy Spirit. He said "Tell the people", and the atmosphere changed when that happened, He said "Tell the people, I am passing by many, and once I pass by it would be as though I never knew them." In other words, there's, its, its the last call. Do you remember what He said in the scripture, when, when he said, the young virgins, that some had the oil and some didn't have any? The five wise, the five foolish. It, we are in it. We are in it. People, He is passing by many. Thank God He is not passing you by.

- Benny Hinn

Metacrock · 02-10-2002, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Morgan:
As Nathaniel Branden puts it in his book <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0787945269/InternetInfidelsA" target="_blank">The Psychology of Self-Esteem</a>: "Mental health requires of man that he place no value above perception, i.e., no value above consciousness, i.e., no value above reality. ... There is no greater self-delusion than to imagine that one can render unto reason that which is reason's and unto faith that which is faith's. ... Anyone who engages in the practice of psychotherapy confronts every day the devastation wrought by the teachings of religion. ... If preventive therapy is every psychologist's and psychiatrist's professed dream, then an expose of the harmful consequences of childhood exposure to religion is a pretty good place to begin."

I agree with him.

This is not to say, of course, that all theists are psychotic. However, those theists who believe in a literal resurrection and other physical events which contravene the laws of nature likely would be classified as mentally unbalanced if those beliefs were not wrapped in religious garb and if they were openly talked about as if true, studied in Sunday schools, preached about on street corners, etc., etc.

Mad Kally is correct that there is often a religious element in psychosis. It is also true (if I remember correctly from my abnormal psych classes) that religious belief and schizophrenia occupy the same portion of the brain.

And certainly the biblical Jesus would likely be diagnosed by the standards of today as psychotic were it not for the fact that he is excused from such judgement (by all but a relatively small portion of us) by reason of the fact that his behavior and teachings are wrapped in religious garb.

--Don--

I'm wondering what was the highest grade of school that you completed? Was it beyond grade school? Man you guys are so out of it! Why dont' you try to finnish your education.

Look, your opinions and your imposition of experince upon reality as the standard is totally meaningless. You have not one shread of data. you can try to bastardize these general statments from shrink text books all you want but real shrinks have really sutdied the issue and never find that religion in general is corrollated with mental illness. In fact the find the oppossite. Just read the data I've put through.

That worth far more than your biased conjectures. Real shrinks ahve studies it and found you are wrong! that is worth far more than your conjectures.

Mad Kally · 02-10-2002, 09:11 AM

Meta=> said:
Why dont' you try to finnish your education.

I am not Finnish!

Metacrock · 02-10-2002, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad Kally:


Why you say? Perhaps because 80%+ of the US buys into the insanity?
(Including psychiatrists and psychologists)

Meta =>That's just circular reasoning. If 80% believe it then by defition its the norm and it can't be abnormal.

Quote:

I read your debate with Gurdur and all I can say about that is "you are not all there", if you know what I mean! Maybe one card short of a full deck? Your posts are an excellent source of amusement. Everyone knows that laughter really does heal and boost the immune system! (without your horrid fairy tale invisible sky creatures)

Meta =>Big sounding words. But can you put your money where your big fat ignornat mouth is? You can't say a dman thing about the content of the arguments, or the data I present. All you are doing is blowing gas!

Quote:

A psychiatrist once told me I should pray more and read the bible. haha (the sick fuck)[/QB]

MEta =>ahahahahahahaha, So how's that for curicular reasoning! A shirink thought a relgious solution would be good, but what does he know?

So let me see now, you want psychiatric verification of your views, but when they go agisnt you they are the sick ones. You think religious thoguht is insane but admitt that the vast majority of people believe it? What's your defition of mental health? It's begining to look like it's totally self referential.

Metacrock · 02-10-2002, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rimstalker:


Quite a Freudian, Meatcock. Not only is religion the beast, but it allows people to digress easily. In case you haven't noticed, though, Koy was making an argument based on the definition of psychosis, not vague references to dubious authorities. You see, he uses logic to debate, rather than quote mining and authority whoring, with a plastic label of scholarship slapped on it.

vague references to doubious authorities? What makes them doubous? They include one of the top ranked social scientists in the 20th century, Maslow? Well they disagree with your so that makes the doubous.

These are empirical studies! You have no concept what that means do you?

"scholarhsip slapped on it" you have no concept of social science research. I have a degree in it. My BA was in sociology, and I can tell you know nothing. In fact I would bet you work at McDonalds.

Anunnaki · 02-10-2002, 09:19 AM

I woke up this morning to what sounded like a very large rock being rolled away from the opening of a tomb.
I thought to myself "oh no,not again!" but sure enough, I get online and find that Metacrock is on the loose again.

You try to keep him busy while I go get the net.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

02-10-2002, 09:11 AM	#27
Mad Kally Banned Join Date: May 2001 Location: LALA Land in California Posts: 3,764	Meta=> said: Why dont' you try to finnish your education. I am not Finnish!

02-10-2002, 09:19 AM	#30
Anunnaki Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: I`ve left and gone away Posts: 699	I woke up this morning to what sounded like a very large rock being rolled away from the opening of a tomb. I thought to myself "oh no,not again!" but sure enough, I get online and find that Metacrock is on the loose again. You try to keep him busy while I go get the net.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.