Koyaanisqatsi

Perhaps "christ reality" is too narrow a phrase. Let's bounce it back out to the more appropriate and inclusive "theist reality," since this applies to any religious belief. Just because I'm more familiar with born again christian cult side-effects doesn't mean that we should limit this just to the familiar, so my mistake to coin that phrase.

As for whether or not it is "simply" due to logical fallacy, I also think that is too mollifying a term. We don't want to obfuscate what we're talking about through imprecise terminology, no matter how much speculation we toss around.

Even if it were due to the inability to correctly apply or understand the process of logic, that would still betray, IMO, a serious detrimental problem endemic to supplanted "theist reality" (tell you what, let's call it STR for short and be done with it).

STR is not "simply" anything at all, even if it is just a problem of individuals not applying logic properly. In Meta's case, for example, he truly believes--obstinately and vehemently--that it is he and only he that is applying logic correctly and, according to his belief structure, he is and that's where the (alleged) delusion comes in, IMO. It isn't necessarily that Meta can't apply logic according to the proper process of logic, it's that his application of logic is fundamentally skewed into "theist logic" (STL?).

Freud, for all of the cheap shot vilification that goes on when his name is mentioned, hit upon one of the most profound theories with "Projection," the idea that we project our own fears and frustrations onto others, thus turning what we hurl outward into what we should be looking at inward. I'd like to extend that concept to a social model, if I may, and apply it to this discussion.

Actually, that's not true. I've questioned whether or not this is true and here's why. We've all--including and especially theists--wondered where the "god concept" comes from. This post is all about a discussion of whether or not there is some sort of fundamental (i.e., inherent) defect in the brain that causes the hallucinations and "visions" and fanaticism of cult mysticism or the other way around or something else; something that you touched upon in that it is merely faulty logic manipulated by evil men (who think they are doing good, BTW, so there's another example of delusion).

If we apply my extended theory of projection (ETOP; I'm having fun with the acronyms ) to a social model (that what we as a collective consciousness write, paint, preach and proselytize speaks more about the true nature of our existence than anything "surface" or "external," if you will) then perhaps both the theist and the atheist are right. Perhaps there is some form of fundamental, hard wired element to our chemical makeup that can be triggered into "defect" by such inculcation. Religion as a drug; religion as a crutch; religion as STR?

We know from our dreams that our minds/brains have a profound ability to not just imagine other "realities," but to actually take us to those realities. Now, not to get off on a tangent into dream consciousness, the difference between what happens (both psychologically and physiologically) in our dream realities is that we immediately snap out of them upon waking (well, in most cases it's immediate) and instantly recognize the "object permanence" of the waking reality we all operate within.

In this regard there is definitely a combination of hard-wiring and "triggered" fantasy response/reaction, wherein we literally supplant our waking reality with our various and sundry dream realities, yet we are still capable of balancing the two and recognizing the waking variation (for the most part).

In other words, when we wake up from whatever dream reality variation we're in (and I don't know about you, buy my dream realities are literally infinitely variable); we "remember" the default settings of waking reality and adjust accordingly. We all--theists alike--reset to the waking reality's object permanence and from there, the theist and the atheist depart (yes, I'm using gross generalizations in order to expedite matters).

So, if it isn't a delusional state of some kind to look at the default reality and believe as if it were absolute truth to be the result of a fantasy/fictional creature, then the only other conclusion to come to is cult indoctrination (aka, brainwashing), wherein that fundamental element that allows us to shuffle through dream realities without losing our sense of waking reality gets "borrowed" or "triggered" or some how dragged out of the dream reality acceptance paradigm (DRAP ?) into the waking reality acceptance paradigm (WRAP) and applied.

Boy, talk about rambling and not wanting to go off on tangents! And no, I'm not smoking anything...currently.

If you can follow any of that, let me know. One thing, I think, is for sure, WRAP should not be supplanted, augmented or otherwise disturbed in any way by theist reality and yet it vehemently is in millions of people around the globe throughout their entire lifetimes, so much so that they pass this STR successfully down many hundreds of generations of offspring.

The christian cult STR, for just the familiar example, has been transmitted for some two thousand years and although it's true many in this country don't really believe it, many others vehemently do, so if there isn’t some sort of hard-wired (d)effect that is triggered by theist reality, then what? Mere indoctrination.

But how does mere indoctrination result in born agains; Jonestown suicides; the WTC disaster; and hundreds of millions of other such atrocities performed throughout the centuries as a direct result of STR consciousness? Just saying those things were committed by deviant or charismatic individuals and STR isn't to blame doesn't cut it. To use an oft quoted cult platitude, "hate the sin, not the sinner."

Centuries of prolonged victimization, social divisiveness and bloodshed can not be the responsibility of individuals (with the ultimate exception of the first ones, of course, i.e., Paul and whoever first concocted the Islamic cult), so it must be the doctrines and/or something fundamental about the alleged "triggered" state of STR that is to blame, IMO.

That may explain the moderate few to a certain degree, but not to the fundamental aspect they all share, the almost unshakable declarative that "god exists." The moderates may not know what kind of god or truly believe that their indoctrinated god exists, but all theists of whatever "rank" all share that one thing in common, the absolute, almost unshakable conviction (they call it "belief," but it's certainly more akin to conviction--delusional conviction, I should add, but perhaps that's a dangerous semantics game I'm unwittingly falling prey to--in my experience) that a fictional creature factually exists and is watching over/responsible for their lives in some manner.

Too late, I've already dragged you all down with me now!

Again, I think you're focus is on the "beliefs" being what is delusional and that's not quite what I'm trying to get at. Let me see if I can put this properly; to believe that a fictional creature factually exists is what is delusional, so in that regard it is a delusional belief, but I just wanted to clarify that the delusion is, of course, within the theist mind and not necessarily focused upon the belief; as if discarding the belief will necessarily "heal" the delusional mind.

I don't know, of course, it's still part of the question and entirely open for conjecture by anyone who wishes to chime in, but, again, I'm concerned about where the focus of all this drifts.

So, naturally, I throw concepts like WRAP into the mix! WEEEEE.

True.

Not necessarily. If you mean by "garden variety" those who believe primarily out of tradition and apathy toward breaking a ritual, then sure. But these people obviously only serve as say, "privates" or perhaps "corporals," to use a military ranking for lack of any better for analogy's sake.

What concerns me and what is more detrimental to society, of course, are the higher ranks, so discussing those who are "immune" shall we say, yet still remain due to nothing more than tradition are, in essence, pointless blips on the radar. But who knows? Perhaps they are even worse since they know there are no such things as fictional creatures who factually exist, yet they continue to indirectly support the delusion?

That, too, is an excellent question. Is it the self or the indoctrination of the self? I guess this goes back to whether or not there is a "trigger" or not, but, again, I suspect it isn't so black/white, which is why I've raised this question.

Yet, the "stereotypical nutter" is treated accordingly by the psychiatric community with little to no hesitation. That's a salient point, however tangential to your own.

It's not one of my "favorite" terms per se; it's the correct term, but I take your meaning.

True, so we're back to indoctrination. How then can indoctrination so deeply effect many and so tenuously effect others (your garden variety) and hardly effect us? Again, is there something fundamentally different about our physiological propensity to be suckered by STR? Something fundamentally different about our intellects? My Aunt and Uncle (and cousins) are all blood of my blood (well, not my Uncle, but you take my meaning) and readily apply critical thinking (logic) to just about every other element of their lives, but when it comes to their STR, zombie! Total lock down.

Same I think for Meta and Nomad. Perhaps Nomad is a better example, because he is clearly highly intelligent with the ability to reason and apply logic almost as well as the atheists here, yet when it comes to directly applying it to the only element of his own position that matters, he vapor locks and shuts cognitive processing down in that regard.

The pattern is unmistakable and almost universal for most cult members that post here; it's almost traceable, like a Chick's Tract. I always picture a game of chess that's played entirely in support of the King rather than aggressively against the other sides King. So long as they can obfuscate, redirect, dance and sing into what they perceive as a stalemate, they feel they've done their job.

Again, the burden of proof loop that is always employed typifies this strategy. It never registers on them that regardless of any other alleged claims requiring a fulfillment of the burden of proof, they still have their own burden to fulfill. So, instead of doing such a thing (which they can't), they vapor lock the process by sidestep, all the while vehemently insisting that they aren't sidestepping and don't have to fulfill their burden.

It is this kind of repetitive, delusional behavior that is found in just about every cult member that has posted here. A dogmatic inability (refusal?) to recognize what their burdens are, yet a blind insistence they have not just met their burdens, but also effectively and conclusively turned the burden around onto the atheist, who has made no claim.

Is this mere disingenuous "spin" apologetics? Well, yes, but for what purpose and to what end? To justify their continued irrational STR.

Indoctrination is the easiest answer, of course, but also the most simplistic. Mere indoctrination just seems insufficient to answer the overwhelming amount of social and familial harm STR has caused throughout the centuries.

Oh, yeah, Meta if you're still here, do my research for me by going <a href="http://iidb.org" target="_blank">here </a> for me on that last one.

Thanks.

(edited for formatting - Koy)

[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]</p>

Mad Kally

I'm a hospice RN now. I visit terminally ill patients in their homes on a daily basis. I have NEVER had a patient look at me with with or without tears in their eyes and say "It's God" or "God helps me cope". That is pure bullshit. It doesn't make a damn bit of difference whether they believe in invisible fairy tale people or not when the shit comes down. Most of my patients cope quite well, depending on the amount of narcotics they are receiving. By the time they are actively dying, they usually aren't even aware of their surroundings.

I HAVE seen pastors, other church people and even family members leave the room because they can't handle watching the process. (the end) One preacher sneaked out, got into his car and took off at fast as he could. Many times the only person left by the bedside is this compassionate, atheist nurse.

They don't know I'm an atheist. I might get fired if I came out of the closet. When I first go to a patients house to help them sign up for home hospice care, I hear things like "You are an angel of mercy". I just smile. While I'm smiling it feels like a knife going through my heart because I know I will watch them die. On the other hand, I provide psycho-social support for them and their families, and I have the ability to let them be relatively pain free, and to die with as much dignity and respect as possible. (much more effective than praying, wouldn't you say?)

Don't even get me started on how well the placebo effect works in the REAL world! I'm amazed that anyone with half a brain would ever argue against it! Meta should be so lucky to even have half a brain. Oh, but if he did, he might give up his evil cult membership..

It's just great that some of you haven't had to deal with psychotic cult members. I have spent my whole life surrounded by the insanity of extremely fundie xians. They are not in touch with reality! They are delusional. I was mentally and physically tortured during my chilhood and my adult life! I don't think I will ever recover from the trauma.

I've had a few liberal Catholic friends who seemed quite normal. However the subject of god mythology was never mentioned.

My mother goes to a church with more than 10,000 members. They speak in tongues, lay hands on people to HEAL them, lie prostrate on the floor and go through all sorts of insane rambling and gyrations while doing something called intercessory prayer!?! They perform exorcisms on their own children! WTF? No one will ever convince me they are not mentally ill.

Yesterday I called my mother (big ass mistake) to tell her I found a lump in my breast. Why do I keep trying to believe I have a mother who gives a shit? The first thing out of her vile mouth was "You had better get right with GOD so you can be with me in Heaven or...!" I hung up the phone and cried.. When will I ever learn?

Why am I still shocked at the insanity? She gets piles of mail from those delusional TV evangelists every day. Then she sits with her checkbook for hours so she can pay for those fucking gold throne chairs they sit in on TBN. Have any of you ever watched that show? You may think "wow, they are really weird". Well, how would you like the be raised by lunatics like that?

They are constantly talking about their visions and hearing the voice of god/Jesus. Usually god wants more money! They believe people like Benny Hinn who says he is going to heal dead people in front of their TV sets. Just tell the morgue "Hey wait a minute, bring that body to my house and put it in front of the TV screen and it will come back to life!" (I am not joking) Tell me that millions of people who watch that shit and send most of their money to finance that insanity are NOT delusional? Bullshit!

BTW, I've seen all the schizophrenics with the religious delusions, but I've never seen one claim to be a political figure or artist.

The sickest thing of all is that most of the innocent children who are being brainwashed by theses cults will NEVER be able to think their way out of it! What about the xian psychiatrists and psychologists who only reinforce the insanity?

Most of them believe in their sick, fucked up minds that mental illness (even depression) is all caused by demon possession! They think I am evil and disturbed?

If I'm an atheist bigot, good! Fuck em! I wish I had a magic wand so I could zap them off the face of the earth!

[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: Mad Kally ]</p>

Bookman

Koy, good post. I finally went ding when you said:

Let me re-read and re-think your post -- I didn't make it through the alphabet soup unscalded the first time -- and give you some sort of reply later this evening.

Thanks,
Bookman

cricket

Kally! I had an argument with my mother today and felt really rotten about it 'til I read your post. I've got it good compared to some... I don't know HOW you've coped. I CAN'T BELIEVE the first thing out of your mother's mouth was about 'getting right with God'!

I agree with you... they are nuts. Authorities should be notified. The doors could be locked during holy-roller hour. Food, cots, and straitjackets could be imported and the building can become an insane asylum.

(I hope your breast lump isn't serious. I'll be thinking of you.)

GunnerJ

Well, it apears we've scared Meta off again; he's now back in the Crock Cave licking his wounds, no doubt.

Or maybe he's hiding out with Theophilus, wherever he ran off to!

I have a suggestion not quite related to the main topic: When Meta comes back, we DON'T let him forget about this thread. He has a way of starting shit he can't finish, and then hiding out in the wilderness till he thinks we've forgotten about what an ass he's made of himslef and it's safe to coem back. Let's make sure that he knows it's NEVER safe to come back, unless he can put his money where his mouth is.

Theo too. Whaddaya say?

Anunnaki

I agree. He shouldn`t be allowed to wiggle off the hook anymore.

"Crock cave" LOL

Dr Rick

Not everyone that holds a false belief is psychotic. Individuals with eating-disorders are often characterized by self-body images that are distorted, but they are rarely psychotic:

Br J Psychiatry 1997 Apr;170:381-6: Delusion, the overvalued idea and religious beliefs: a comparative analysis of their characteristics.Jones E, Watson JP., Division of Psychiatry, UMDS, Guy's Hospital, London.


Culture does play a role in how delusions are defined, and a commonly held delusion is not considered a form of mental illness:

Psychiatr Clin North Am 1995 Jun;18(2):281-301: Culture-specific delusions. Sense and nonsense in cultural context.Gaines AD., Department of Anthrophology, Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, USA.:

[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: rbochnermd ]</p>

sullster

Dear Mad Kally,
I am off topic, but when you mentioned your duties as a hospice nurse and home care nurse, it brought back a strong memory. My mother died at home 24 years ago and the nurse who came to care for her in her last 6 months is someone I will admire forever. The woman was so caring and strong in a very hard situation. She never broke down in front of us, even at the bitter end. Yet, it still brings a tear to my eye all these years later, when I remember seeing her in her car crying alone, just before she left the driveway on that last day of work for her.

The nurses who do the work you do are worth a thousand pastors and ministers. I am sorry, I don't feel that they are truly psychotic, but many are gutless wonders who couldn't last an hour doing the kind of work you do, and hide in the illusions of their religion. A relatively few people are truly strong when facing the horrors of life, many sink into a comforting detour like religion, drugs or alcohol. Someone like yourself is unique and those who recieve your strength at their life's end are lucky indeed.

Thank you for letting me remember a strong and caring woman from my past, when you revealed that you are just like her.

PompousBastard

More off topic stuff:

I have to agree about the VNA Hospice nurses. This past October, I acted as the primary caregiver for my favorite aunt while she was dying of cancer. The Hospice people were wonderful. I really don't think my family and I could have done it without them. All the nurses I met were pretty obviously Christians (wore crosses, talked about God, etc.) but they weren't obnoxious about it. They gave practical, compassionate care to my aunt and told me how to make things easier on her. I think the God-talk made the rest of my family feel better about things, too, so that's no big deal in my eyes. Thanks to them, my aunt was able to die in her own bed, surrounded by her family. Like sullster, I was touched to see tears in the eyes of the nurses.

Kally, if you do half as good a job as they did, you rock. That must be a very fulfilling job. I'm sorry you have to hide your atheism to do it. I hope your lump doesn't turn out to be serious.

Mad Kally

Thank you so much. It's not very often that someone even knows what we do, much less understand. Sometimes I make it out of the driveway and pull over a couple blocks down the street before I break down.

I realize that I'm not very rational when it comes to fundie xians. I'm even less tolerant after spending way too much time here at TheSecWeb.

I'm taking a long break from this bulletin board now. Thanks to Koy, I've found a new cause where I can actually do something to help people on the internet rather than rant at xians. I'm really tired of being so angry.

Isn't it odd that after everything I've seen, I don't have any fear of death? Perhaps it's because I know there is an alternative to Kevorkian.. and I know there's no invisible guy in the sky who wants me to burn for eternity.

edited to add: Thanks to you too PompousBastard! (I like your name)

[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: Mad Kally ]</p>