Freethought & Rationalism Archive

crocodile deathroll · 11-11-2002, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by thebeave:

I've speculated that whether you experience NDEs or not depends on your own particular brain chemistry, rate of blood and/or oxygen deprivation while "dying", accompanying head injury, or maybe even whether you are one of the so-called "fantasy prone" individuals (e.g. many of the Christians visiting this BBS).

Yes I think the same way about. What would be evolutionary advantage in a clean shutdown? Unless it is to galvanize some psychological advantage of a race of people from not being too afraid of their own mortality so they can fight the other tribe more fiercely and courageously and that will win wars so they can pass on those more courageous genes to the next generation. They may be convinced they are seeing "Valhalla" at the light at the end of the tunnel. So the cowardly tribes would who were more fearful of their own mortality would then become extinct

[ November 11, 2002: Message edited by: crocodile deathroll ]

eh · 11-12-2002, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seraphim:
By eh :
"No, this one is clearly wrong. Tell me, how can there be a center of an infinite space?"

My reply : Because the Big Bang originated from ONE focus point. Assuming that it spread in ALL direction at the same time, the galaxies could be spread like jam on a butter.

This is a misconception. The big bang did not originate from any point in space. Space itself is expanding, and matter is not flying out into some pre existing void. An open universe is infinite from the start, so there is no center in such a case.

Quote:

Assuming of course that Earth and its solar system where form much later than other galaxies, we could be much closer to the centre than those galaxies which were born earlier than us. Big Bang is said to be occurred about 4.5 Billion years ago, but our Earth is only 1.3 Billions years old (I got the figure somewhere ... TV I guess, please correct it if it is a mistake), thus through this, I conclude that we are at the base where the explosion occured than galaxies which was created before.

You can learn a lot more from books than TV. Is MTV the only channel you get?

Quote:

All this is based on logical deduction and basic maths (and knowledge picked up from watching Discovery and National Geography), so don't ask for a link.

I won't ask for a link, as I have no need to visit the Beavis and Butthead science site. I should be the one providing a link, so here is Dr. Odenwalds site: <a href="http://itss.raytheon.com/cafe/qadir/qanda.html" target="_blank">http://itss.raytheon.com/cafe/qadir/qanda.html</a>

ps418 · 11-12-2002, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Seraphim, explaining personality changes in Phineas Gage resulting from brain injury, wrote:

That's simple. How do you have your personality? Were you born with it? No, you are what you made yourself to be. If your personality is a grumpy, old man who intolerant to other people, That what you made yourself to be.

Not quite. Twin studies and other behavior genetic research has demonstrated that personality traits are largely (though not completely!) heritable. Consider the following five major personality dimensions:

introversion/extroversion
neurotic/stable
incurious/open to experience
agreeable/antagonistic
conscientious/undirected

According to MIT psychologist Steve Pinker, in his book <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0670031518/qid=1037139740/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/102-0165703-0811377?v=glance&s=books&n=507846" target="_blank">The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature (2002),</a> (which you should definitely read, btw)"all 5 of the major personality dimensions are heritable, with perhaps 40 to 50% of the variation tied to differences in the genes" (p. 51). So, personality is not something we simply construct at our whims, nor is it something determined solely by our environment.

Quote:

Seraphim: In Gage's cases, his personality changed when part of the brain where this personality data kept was damaged, thus he lost some of his personality.

Gage lost something alright, but it wasnt part of his personality. It was part of his frontal lobes, which perform what can be loosely described as an executive function. Damage to the frontal lobes frequently produces the type of personality changes seen in Gage's case (e.g. disinhibition and difficulty controlling emotions).

[ November 12, 2002: Message edited by: ps418 ]

[ November 12, 2002: Message edited by: ps418 ]

Amie · 11-12-2002, 10:37 PM

I had a NDE when I was almost 20 years old. I was in a horrific car accident...As a believer I am inclined to think it was divine, however I am certainly open to other possibilities...

Ms. Siv · 11-12-2002, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seraphim:
"Sure ... gravitation and electromagnetism and the earth going around the sun etc ... all of them are just "theories". They still work ... all the time. If they didn't ... the theory wouldn't be valid anymore "

My reply : You are comparing this half-baked theories to those dealing with gravitation and electromagnestism? Theories on gravitation and electromagnetism can be proven by mathematical model and Quantum Physics. Even so the evidence is not physical, but it can be shown by creating models that WORKS.

So you're saying that the validity of a theory is not based on evidence but on mathematical models and quantum physics ?? What sort of criteria is that ??

Quote:

Your theory on NDE doesn't fit anything. You (and few others) start the debate by trying to show that NDE and OBE happens because of stress. When someone asked why people who are relaxed and in state of Meditation have them, you guys change stories, this NDE is because of some stuff the dying cells in brain produce which mixed and misintrepreted along the way.

Noone here is providing a "theory" for NDEs. The evidence suggests that nothing supernatural is happening .... just that under certain conditions the brain responds in certain ways to result in people experiencing it in certain ways is all.
The evidence does not support (or rather, contradicts) any soul or life-after-death theories.

Quote:

My reply : IF that is truth, dear, I rather be ignorant.

Well ... as I told someone else, truth does not depend on personal preferences. Or, as Sagan put it (beautifully!) ...
" The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition "

Quote:

Something don't just happen like that - NOT to a complex structure like a Human Brain.

Of course not. The human brain evolved for perfectly valid reasons ... survival and reproduction ... gene propogation, given the environment it evolved in.

Quote:

"I said "objective" evidence ... not anecdotal evidence."

My reply : Which means what? Example please (something in the back of my mind says this is going to be another waste of time).

You dont know what objective evidence means ??
Its evidence that is independently verifiable and confirmable. Does not depend on the subject.

- Sivakami.

11-13-2002, 12:02 AM

"So you're saying that the validity of a theory is not based on evidence but on mathematical models and quantum physics ?? What sort of criteria is that ?? "

My reply : And What evidence have you summited so far? Like I said, your theories remain theories because it doesn't even fit logic.

Take my Soul approach in another thread I created in this column (which I kept forgetting to update), I tried to bring around the discussion toward Quantum Physics by stating that Soul behaves similar to energy when increase and decrease in level of energy. In this example, even so I cannot prove it without going into doing deeper research (which I have no resource to commit nor mathematical skills required) at least hold some logical validation.

"Noone here is providing a "theory" for NDEs. The evidence suggests that nothing supernatural is happening .... just that under certain conditions the brain responds in certain ways to result in people experiencing it in certain ways is all.
The evidence does not support (or rather, contradicts) any soul or life-after-death theories."

My reply : OK, Fine.

"Well ... as I told someone else, truth does not depend on personal preferences. Or, as Sagan put it (beautifully!) ...
" The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition "

My reply : Fine also.

"Of course not. The human brain evolved for perfectly valid reasons ... survival and reproduction ... gene propogation, given the environment it evolved in."

My reply : The above statements I made before some guy come around and told me that the argument he throw at me (and from which I based my discussion for the last few days) is invalid since he didn't read properly. So Fine by me.

"You dont know what objective evidence means ??
Its evidence that is independently verifiable and confirmable. Does not depend on the subject."

My reply : OK, Fine.

Ms. Siv · 11-13-2002, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seraphim:
"So you're saying that the validity of a theory is not based on evidence but on mathematical models and quantum physics ?? What sort of criteria is that ?? "

My reply : And What evidence have you summited so far? Like I said, your theories remain theories because it doesn't even fit logic.

Plenty of evidence. Lab studies done on drug patients. Monitoring of patients who were near-death. Simulations of NDEs in the lab and analysing the results .... so much has been done.

And where's the evidence for a soul or after-life hypothesis ?? None.

We seem to be in agreement on the rest of the issues, so I wont respond to those.

- S.

Starboy · 11-13-2002, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by eh:


No, this one is clearly wrong. Tell me, how can there be a center of an infinite space?

Or better yet, try an experiment. Take a sheet of paper, and draw some galaxies on it. Then roll the paper into a cylinder. Which galaxy is at the center?

If only it were that easy. What we have is a finite space where every point is the center. Figure that out.

Starboy

crocodile deathroll · 11-13-2002, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy:


If only it were that easy. What we have is a finite space where every point is the center. Figure that out.

Starboy

If a giant was blowing up a huge polka dot balloon the size of the Earth, and you were standing on any one of the dots, then all the other dots will appear to be expanding away from you no matter which dot you were standing on.
So any one point you were standing on would be percieved as being the "center".
Does that figure is out?

eh · 11-14-2002, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy:


If only it were that easy. What we have is a finite space where every point is the center. Figure that out.

Starboy

Actually, it seems that we live in a flat, and spatially infinite universe. But at any rate, the 2D sheet of paper analogy works good here. If you were a 2D character on a sheet of paper, and you roll it up so that the ends meet, there would be no edge for such characters. Thus, no matter what part of this sheet universe you are on, it will seem to be the center.

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11-12-2002, 10:37 PM	#64
Amie Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: New York Posts: 1,626	I had a NDE when I was almost 20 years old. I was in a horrific car accident...As a believer I am inclined to think it was divine, however I am certainly open to other possibilities...

11-13-2002, 12:02 AM	#66
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	"So you're saying that the validity of a theory is not based on evidence but on mathematical models and quantum physics ?? What sort of criteria is that ?? " My reply : And What evidence have you summited so far? Like I said, your theories remain theories because it doesn't even fit logic. Take my Soul approach in another thread I created in this column (which I kept forgetting to update), I tried to bring around the discussion toward Quantum Physics by stating that Soul behaves similar to energy when increase and decrease in level of energy. In this example, even so I cannot prove it without going into doing deeper research (which I have no resource to commit nor mathematical skills required) at least hold some logical validation. "Noone here is providing a "theory" for NDEs. The evidence suggests that nothing supernatural is happening .... just that under certain conditions the brain responds in certain ways to result in people experiencing it in certain ways is all. The evidence does not support (or rather, contradicts) any soul or life-after-death theories." My reply : OK, Fine. "Well ... as I told someone else, truth does not depend on personal preferences. Or, as Sagan put it (beautifully!) ... " The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition " My reply : Fine also. "Of course not. The human brain evolved for perfectly valid reasons ... survival and reproduction ... gene propogation, given the environment it evolved in." My reply : The above statements I made before some guy come around and told me that the argument he throw at me (and from which I based my discussion for the last few days) is invalid since he didn't read properly. So Fine by me. "You dont know what objective evidence means ?? Its evidence that is independently verifiable and confirmable. Does not depend on the subject." My reply : OK, Fine.

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