Laurentius

AVE
Well, I can't help to confess that this topic has seemed quite dubious to me ever since I first saw it (no ofence pug846).

Let us see if I have understood the problem right.

The question is whether or not one can prove that the Bible has not been written by Satan.

Can Satan be taken into consideration otherwise than in relation with God? And if so, how?

Isn't Satan defined in opposition with God, and don't God and Satan's definitionS come from religious authorities? I mean, even if we are atheists, when analyzing religious statements we are supposed to work with their religious notions as they are defined in their scope of expertise.

If I define Satan the way that suits me, I can prove anything. Hypothetically speaking, of course.
AVE

KweschunThEAnserz

I'm going to comment on the original question being How do we know that Satan did not write the Bible. I will use the Biblical Satan defined as a fallen angel who took half of the angelic host with him.

Satan as we know from the Bible, is the king of lies. What some of us may not know (especially atheists) are Satans limitations to this title. First of all, satan is an angel, who made his one and only choice to turn from God. An angel as the Bible describes does not have the same attributes as God gave humans. As it relates to this argument, the particular attribute that satan does not have is the ability to have original thought. Humans, who are created in the image of God have the ability to create, which is one of the reasons the angels marveled at us. We are also able to use the power that is "in Gods name" which also separates us from the angels. This being said, no Lie or deceiving done from Satan is created, but is merely a copy of what has been done before. Satan can take what he already knows and distort it, but he cannot create original thought, which, if you read the Bible it consists of original concepts. Primarily the concept of an Omnimax god who loves us and sent his son to die. Most religions out there tend to replicate themselves or stem out from something else. (ie: some satanic rituals have the same ritualistic gestures as a Mormon wedding) To get to the point, assuming the Satan of the Bible is real, he would not be able to create the original concept of the Bible or fabricate lies based from his own ideas.

Someone told this to me recently and I would like input preferably from someone who knows the Bible (doesn't have to believe it) or someone who has a problem with this idea and granting the assumption that we're using the Bible's description and attributes of Satan.

Dexter Cymru

Ok, there may be some debate about authorship - but what about the editing process ? 400 years late, big bits of Israeli history dumped out in the apochrypha and pseudapygripha (no guarantee on spelling !), constructed by a group of people with a variety of personal agendas. Lucifer might not have written it, but there is a saying (Shakespeare ?), that 'the devil is in the detail' !
I know it might be considered flippant, but maybe Lucifer wrote the first bit when he/she was the LightBearer - prior to taking up the new job in the basement.

Peter P.

1. Just because it describes wonders witnessed by many peoples doesn't negate that oral tradition, and not a god, wrote the Bible. Oral tradition also has this supernatural power of knowing what happened to the exact point...right?

2. Prove to me that half the events happened and that they were predicted (not just written down, or worse told as stories after they occured), and that half the people are real. If a Christian missionary can do that they have a new convert.

3. God is almighty? Follow this famous funline...
If God is omnipotent, then he must be able to create a rock out of thin air. And since he is omnipotent, he should be able to create a rock that no one, including himself can lift. However, if he cannot lift the rock he cannot do everything and therefore cannot be omnipotent...it's fun.

Congrats, I would have lost patience around number 1, either that or mad them so angry they would take me out--Inquisition-style...

Peter P.

bd-from-kg

KweschunThEAnserz:

An interesting argument, but I’m not sure that it has Biblical support or that it is entirely coherent.

Since you’re arguing from the attributes of Satan as described in the Bible, please provide chapter and verse for this claim.

Please provide chapter and verse for the claim that this is the reason the angels marveled at us.

First off, there is absolutely nothing in the Old Testament that even hints at the concept of an omnimax God who loves us and sent His son to die. Does your copy of the Bible omit the entire OT? If not, please cite some original concepts from the OT (which, after all, comprises about two-thirds of the Bible).

More importantly, what do you mean by an “original concept”? For example, if see a red ball and a blue box and come up with the idea of a red box, does this count as an “original concept”? If (having never heard of numbers) I see three seeds, three birds, three people, etc. and it finally strikes me that all of these groups have something in common, have I had an original concept? If I see the sun rise in the morning in the east, see the same thing again the next day and the next, and eventually come to suspect that the sun rises in the morning in the east every day, have I had an original concept? Suppose that I see two lines that seem to go in the same direction and observe that they seem to remain about the same distance apart indefinitely, and this gets me to thinking that maybe lines that go in exactly the same direction will always remain the same distance apart and will never meet no matter how far they are extended. Have I had an original concept? If so, are you saying that Satan (and all of the angels) are unable to have such thoughts? If not, what do you mean by an original concept? Could you give an actual example?

Are you seriously claiming that the Mormon religion involves no original concepts in a sense in which traditional Christianity does?

Kharakov

Laurentius-

From Christian logic:


1) Only god is infallible

2) Thus only god knows the truth (because anything man thinks he knows is corrupted by man's fallibility)

3) Any man who claims to know gods word, intent, or that the bible is gods word based upon his imperfect knowledge is a liar (knowing something implys that the man is certain)

4) By xian standards, claiming knowledge of biblical authenticity is lying- because only god has perfect knowledge of whether or not the bible is actually god's word (unless you go by the standard that god created everything- so any word uttered is god's word- so nobody ever lied who claimed any word was god's word- because they are all god's words, blah blah blah)

oops, circle again. Can't avoid a circle with words- because we can only describe words with words. I think people who claim to know anything, or try to prove anything but another word's meaning with words are full of $#!T.

Laurentius

AVE, Kharakov

Let’s have some more fun with your application.

From Laurentius’s point of view:

1) Only Laurentius is infallible as to his universe.

2) Only Laurentius knows the truth of his universe.

3) Any man who claims to know Laurentius’s word, intent, or that he/she has found out an error in Laurentius’s universe based upon his/her imperfect knowledge is a liar.

4) By xian standards, claiming knowledge of what Laurentius is talking about and the authenticity of his assertions is lying.

Conclusion: By attempting to prove his point, or trying to prove anything at all regarding Laurentius's statements, Kharakov only managed to produce $#!T.

Question: What kind of game is this anyway?
AVE

Laurentius

AVE, Peter P

I am a genuine atheist and I do not feel like playing the Christian's role just for fun.

My intervention points at the apparent lack of ground of this approach.

(a) Satan has not been clearly defined for thread;
(b) Satan has to be defined according the Christian dogma if this thread addresses a Christian problem.

If Satan in this thread is the Christian Satan, then one can use the contradictions in the Bible to prove whatever... However, God would still be the more entitled to be the author because Satan is defined in opposition with God, the Bible's author.

If Satan in this thread is not the Christian Satan, then one can really prove anything according to one's definition of Satan.

As for the question whether allmighty God can make a rock that he himself cannot lift, I've come across it in textbooks as well. I'm quite sure you have already read the answer too, like I did.

And please, don't try to turn me into a God's advocate.
AVE

Kharakov

You don't agree with my statements? I called your attention to them because you have apparently talked to xians before ("I actually presented this problem to a Christian missionary.
He found this problem interesting and argued this way, after mentioning that he can only talk about God and Satan as shown in the Holy Bible:").

The main point I am attempting (poorly) to describe is that any word or group of words only can directly describe another word or group of words. We can only agree that a word is defined by certain bounds- and we can only do this through words. When we come to an agreement about the definition of a word, we can base other words upon that word. Unfortunately nobody can prove anything to anybody who does not come to a concensus about the definitions of words (and of course to do this, we must use words such as agree and define...).

The definition of the word prove seems to be ignored by many who use it. The only thing that you can prove is that you exist- and you can only prove this to yourself.

Please give me an example of proving something other than the fact that you exist (to yourself).

We have all agreed upon the term prove as: "to establish the existence, truth, or validity of (as by evidence or logic)" (www.m-w.com collegiate dictionary definition 3a of prove)right?

Or are we going by another standard?

Even if the definition of satan is defined by xian dogma, can we prove anything with that definition?

Jonsey3333

This reminds me of an old logic game. Let me alter it....

1.)Assume God always tells the truth.
2.)Assume Satan always lies.
3.)The Bible says that God wrote it.

If God wrote the Bible, God would tell the truth and say that God wrote it.

If Satan wrote the bible, Satan would lie and say God wrote it.

-Mike