tronvillain

I can't say I'm incredibly impressed with all of Corwin's effort either, but he has made a couple points.

Bokonon

So what moral justification do you give for vegetarianism/veganism? I argue that you are ignoring our most basic biological imperatives, and therefore are in conflict with the root impetus for human morality. All other morality is based on the aformentioned two points. You're also arguing with several million years of evolutionary development. Most people would agree this just ain't a great idea. Now.... to do this you should have a pretty damned good moral reason. You have yet to show one other than 'I don't like hurting animals...'

I presented three arguments. One of them was what you so condescendedly refer to as “I don’t like hurting animals.” However, you ignored both the human starvation and the environment positions.

As previously stated, numerous studies present the benefits of a vegetarian and vegan diet in preventing heart disease, stroke, cancers, diabetes, and various other conditions. Do you deny that this is in fact the case?

When it comes to biology, you are correct that our bodies are designed to be able to consume meat and eggs (though not dairy!). In terms of meat consumption, I’d contend that is for survival purposes, or at most, for rare occasions. Meat takes days to digest, literally rotting as it moves through the intestines. Most plant foods are out of there within 24 hours. Have you read Richard Leakey (an avid hunter I might point out)? He and many other respected anthropologists agree that our ancestors were essentially vegans with the occasional egg or rotting corpse. Then we left the jungle and needed to find other sources of food. It seems to me that supports the survival angle.

To quote my Anthropology teacher, a hunter and brilliant man:
“Bite a moose in the ass and see which one of you walks out of there with a new asshole.”

As previously mentioned, B-12 is the one substance that isn’t found easily in the plant kingdom. There are some (~cough~ PETA ~cough~) that suggest B-12 was initially found in the soil, but that erosion and human destruction caused it to leave the soil. To me, that argument is as sound as Creationism. 100 years ago, veganism wasn’t really that feasible solely due to B-12. I don’t see immorality in consuming eggs, at least not eggs produced without abuse. That cannot be said with regards to the egg industry, but within small farms/shelters, I suppose it can be completely moral.

Look at PETA, (you may cyncially be willing to use them.... but you can hardly call them 'stable' in any meaningful sense of the word.) As well as the easy willingness of most of the vegan community to rewrite both biology and history to make veganism seem like the natrual normal and historical diet of humans....

Does this really look stable to you?

I don’t use PETA for scientific matters. They are a good resource for finding reports of abuse and such.

Are they stable? Of course they’re stable as a whole (though I’m sure there are a few kooks). As is found in any social/political/ethical movement, they represent the passionate yet intellectually dishonest corner. That certainly has nothing to do with their diet.

And your entire argument hinges on your (rather overly broad) definition of 'sentient.'
No, you created a new definition of sentience to support your position. I might add that’s no less intellectually dishonest than the actions of PETA.

Let me bring up another issue you dodged.

You insist that animals have 'rights.' Now I can accept this on a basic level. But for anything more detailed.... please explain what responsibilities animals have?

I take mild offense to the assumption that I’ve dodged ANYTHING (or was this a reference to Spin? I can’t tell.) What rights do animals have? I feel there are 2 primary rights that all sentient beings have: the right to live and the right not to suffer. Indeed, you are correct that subjectively, they don’t have these rights. Neither do humans. Rights are given, not inherently possessed. Just because an animal can’t say “I want to live and I don’t want to suffer”, doesn’t mean they don’t think that. There was a time in history when blacks in this country didn’t possess rights. There was a time in the world when women did not possess any meaningful rights. There was a time (and I’d argue it still occurs in many nations) when the poor did not possess any meaningful rights. Over time, society saw the condition, and granted those individuals, those sentient animals, their rights.

What responsibilities do animals have you ask. As a whole, they have no responsibilities. Explain the relevance of this question to the subject at hand.

There’s essentially only one argument in support of the consumption of meat (in non-survival situations) that I can’t adequately respond to: Duuuude, meat tastes good! I could compare this to the attitude revolving around a certain “R” word, but apparently, that’s disapproved of in this forum even though it is a very fare comparison.

Bokonon

If you are getting no exercise than you don't need anywhere near as much protein. Hence, a vegetarian diet isn't so bad. But with vigorous exercise, (not aerobics), a vegetarian diet is inferior for increasing strength.

I know 2 other vegans. Both are incredibly active (one is in fact one of our best track racers). They're very healthy and very active. I'm relatively healthy though not at all active.

When I was a vegetarian for 8 months I gradually got thicker through the middle and thinner in the arms and shoulders despite heavy weightlifting and 2 hours of jogging a week. When I switched back to meat I quickly lost so much flab around my midsection and gained so much muscle back around my arms/shoulders, I was seriously accused of taking steriods.

Its true that you won't find many body builders. But then, I find that physique quite unnatural and in the end, unhealthy on its own.

BTW, my last post was ignored. I thought I really had something of interest to say. But I'm not surprised it was ignored. I probably should quit posting.

Er, wha? I looked at your last post. I don't see what you wanted me to respond to?

<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Marduk

"Amplify a dog's IQ to where it can understand calculus and it will still think like a dog."

No, You will get a mathematician with a great sense of smell and a nice tail.

Marduk

I think the Antichris summed it all up quite well:

"On a slightly different tack, my wife is a vegetarian and, as you can imagine, the topic frequently comes up in conversation with friends. The discussion always starts with friendly interest in my wife's vegetarianism but almost invariably results in pretty robust questioning of my wife's position - "So, of course you don't use; animal products; leather; drugs/medicines; insecticides; etc". It always appeared to me that by trying to expose potential hypocrisy they were attempting to assuage their own feelings of guilt.

Corwin

No, the attempt to expose potential hypocrisy is an attempt to get the more militant to shut the hell up and get off their damned moral superiority complex.

Let's put it in another light. There are still, even today, people who insist that sex before marriage is a moral evil, and that anyone who engages in pre or extramarital sex is weak and evil and cowardly. Of course most people don't like being told that we're weak and evil and morally inferior simply because we follow any of several biological imperatives...

Flat out? The whole 'holier/more moral than thou' attitude of vegans and of many vegetarians just plain pisses me off.

Nohweh

Can you tell me what you think is 'the diet we developed around'?

There is evidence that we evolved on a diet that consisted mostly of fruit. The over-consumption of animal products is a major cause of ill health in humans. This would hardly be the case if eating meat was a biological imperative.

How about you put up or shut up? Post some evidence.

Are you saying that the B12 in soy milk can't actually be used by the body? If you are, then let's see some proof of that.

<a href="http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm" target="_blank">Vitamin B12 in the Vegan Diet</a>

<a href="http://www.cast.uark.edu/local/icaes/" target="_blank">Origins and Evolution of Human Diet</a>

Edited to fix link. Twice!!

[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: Nohweh ]</p>

Corwin

Thank you very much for proving my point about revisionists.

x-member

This morning I put on my leather shoes and my leather jacket and drove 1 block to McDonalds. I parked in the handicapp spot, ordered my sausage and egg mcmuffin, and sat at a double tabel all by myself. Later this afternoon (since it is a long weekend) I'm going to go for a 12 oz slice of prime rib and a scotch. I'll have to eat shell-fish too just to spite leviticus.

I may be a nazi pedophile rapist Dahmer... but I'll be damned if I'm not having fun at it.

Can I have an "A... s..... s.... h.... o.... l.....e an A....s.... s.... h... o... l..... e.. odee oh dee oh dee oh"

[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: Jon Up North ]</p>

Marduk

"Flat out? The whole 'holier/more moral than thou' attitude of vegans and of many vegetarians just plain pisses me off."

To be honest this pissed me off as well for quite some time, I would poke endless fun at my veggie friends "but you have cats! you feed them meat!!" and so on and so on ad nauseum till I some time or another realized that Hey, I like animals, the world would suck without them, they feel pain just like me, and I started feeling bad about the abuse I dished out and eating meat, a whole industry exists to kill animals just so I can have a yummy burger, I just don't think it's worth it anymore unless you live in some hunter gatherer tribe setting. I know, I know, converts are the worst.