Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Magus55 · 06-09-2003, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy Higgins
Why not? Its called parenting. I'm certainly glad my parents didn't decide to slaughter me so that the sins of the rest of the family would be atoned. But look at God's actions in the past. He decided not to kill the man and woman and clothed them when he booted them from Paradise. God showed grace on Cain by making a mark so that no one would kill him, even after he killed his own brother. God showed grace on Noah when flooded the world. God showed grace to a race of people after scattering the world at Babel. God has always punished but then shown grace. Why would you want to say it couldn't be done again?

He has been showing us Grace for the past 2000 years. We are in the Age of Grace, which is why God isn't judging anyone on the spot like He did in the OT.

Magus55 · 06-09-2003, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godless Dave
Humans do NOT die from sin. They die from old age, disease, and injury. This was true before Jesus's crucifixion and after it. His crucifixion doesn't seem to have saved anybody. And the punishment he took on for us - dying- is one every human still has to endure.

Humans DO die from sin. Old age, disease and injury came in to the world as a result of sin. And no, not every human will have to endure death. Around a billion+ will escape the world and be brought to Heaven without ever having to die. Yes many people still die, but we are still in a sinful world and in corrupt bodies. Those who are saved by Jesus will have eternal life and won't face spiritual death.

Yellum Notnef · 06-09-2003, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Humans DO die from sin. Old age, disease and injury came in to the world as a result of sin.

So there were people before sin who never got old,diseased or injured? Who were they?

Quote:

And no, not every human will have to endure death. Around a billion+ will escape the world and be brought to Heaven without ever having to die.

Are you planning on drinking the koolaid before the spaceship arrives or waiting until it's landed just to be sure it's actually here for you?

Godless Dave · 06-09-2003, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Humans DO die from sin. Old age, disease and injury came in to the world as a result of sin.

But we still die. So what did Jesus's sacrifice save us from, exactly?

Also, how is it that old age, disease, and injury in humans, which you say are caused by sin, look and operate exactly like old age, disease, and injury in animals?

Mageth · 06-09-2003, 07:50 AM

By dying on the cross, and rising again. Jesus gained absolutely nothing He didn't already have.

Magus, one more time: God did NOT die on the Cross..

Jesus gained absolutely nothing He didn't already have.

Well, he didn't lose anything, that's for sure. But the NT in several places indicates he did indeed gain something. From Hebrews 2:

6 Instead, someone has testified somewhere: "What is man that you are mindful of him, or the son of man that you care for him? 7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you crowned him with glory and honor, 8 subjecting all things under his feet." In "subjecting" all things (to him), he left nothing not "subject to him." Yet at present we do not see "all things subject to him," 9 but we do see Jesus "crowned with glory and honor" because he suffered death, he who "for a little while" was made "lower than the angels," that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Mageth · 06-09-2003, 08:21 AM

Tell us, how would you allow humanity to be saved

I wouldn't have condemned them for eating a fruit in the first place, particularly if I left it lying around to tempt them, and especially since they didn't have the knowledge of good and evil until after they ate it.

Queen of Swords · 06-09-2003, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by Mageth
I wouldn't have condemned them for eating a fruit in the first place, particularly if I left it lying around to tempt them,

And as if it wasn't bad enough to just leave it there, God let Satan into the garden to tempt Adam and Eve.

God supposedly set angels with fiery swords to guard the garden after the fruit had been eaten. Why didn't he have the angels there in the first place, to protect Adam and Eve from Satan?

Mageth · 06-09-2003, 09:06 AM

But, QoS, that would have been interfering with Satan's free will!!!

Jimmy Higgins · 06-09-2003, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by QueenofSwords
[B]Originally posted by Mageth
And as if it wasn't bad enough to just leave it there, God let Satan into the garden to tempt Adam and Eve.

God supposedly set angels with fiery swords to guard the garden after the fruit had been eaten. Why didn't he have the angels there in the first place, to protect Adam and Eve from Satan?

Satan? Satan isn't in the Garden 'o Eden. It was a snake.

Jimmy Higgins · 06-09-2003, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
He has been showing us Grace for the past 2000 years. We are in the Age of Grace, which is why God isn't judging anyone on the spot like He did in the OT.

So what is precluding anyone from thinking God would have been incapable of mass atonement without the crucifixion? Is it written in the bible that man is doomed without this act being performed, and no other?

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06-09-2003, 07:50 AM	#85
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	By dying on the cross, and rising again. Jesus gained absolutely nothing He didn't already have. Magus, one more time: God did NOT die on the Cross.. Jesus gained absolutely nothing He didn't already have. Well, he didn't lose anything, that's for sure. But the NT in several places indicates he did indeed gain something. From Hebrews 2: 6 Instead, someone has testified somewhere: "What is man that you are mindful of him, or the son of man that you care for him? 7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you crowned him with glory and honor, 8 subjecting all things under his feet." In "subjecting" all things (to him), he left nothing not "subject to him." Yet at present we do not see "all things subject to him," 9 but we do see Jesus "crowned with glory and honor" because he suffered death, he who "for a little while" was made "lower than the angels," that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

06-09-2003, 08:21 AM	#86
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Tell us, how would you allow humanity to be saved I wouldn't have condemned them for eating a fruit in the first place, particularly if I left it lying around to tempt them, and especially since they didn't have the knowledge of good and evil until after they ate it.

06-09-2003, 08:30 AM	#87
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by Mageth I wouldn't have condemned them for eating a fruit in the first place, particularly if I left it lying around to tempt them, And as if it wasn't bad enough to just leave it there, God let Satan into the garden to tempt Adam and Eve. God supposedly set angels with fiery swords to guard the garden after the fruit had been eaten. Why didn't he have the angels there in the first place, to protect Adam and Eve from Satan?

06-09-2003, 09:06 AM	#88
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	But, QoS, that would have been interfering with Satan's free will!!!

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