Treacle Worshipper

This is semi-rant, semi-info request.

I have been having acupuncture once a week since last August, on my GP's recommendation that "It can't do any harm."

I have problems with my legs and no-one actually knows what's wrong (yet), so I think his recommendation has a lot to do with this situation.

However, I have had no noticeable improvement from the acupuncture. Since August, in fact, I have deteriorated from walking with a stick to using a wheelchair.

I was going to give up the acupuncture a couple of weeks ago, but the acupuncturist found out that my GP has referred me to an ME specialist.

(I think ME is also known as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/CFS in the States. I have some ME-like symptoms - muscular pain, involuntary movement, muscle spasms, tingling in extremities - but not overwhelming fatigue or anything like that. I think my GP is hoping the ME specialist might possibly have heard of something like this before.)

Anyway, the acupuncturist spoke to my GP (without my knowledge ) and says he says I should carry on with the acupuncture.

(I doubt he said anything so positive about it, he has been extremely non-commital about the whole thing when speaking to me. I shall certainly be enquiring about this at my next appointment.)

Acupuncturist also started telling me about how wonderful acupuncture was for ME.

NOW...
1) I don't like being railroaded into stuff, especially when said stuff can't be said to work, as shown by previous 8 months of sticking needles into me.
2) I can't find any clinical trials on the web that say acupuncture helps ME, just a couple of personal accounts more-or-less saying "It helps me, but I know other people it hasn't helped."
3) No-one even knows if I've got ME anyway!!!!!!!

So, I guess the request part is: does anyone know of any evidence that acupuncture helps ME anyway? I know there is some that it can reduce nausea in Chemo patients & that kind of thing. But I suppose this was mostly a rant.
I'm just glad I'm not needle-phobic
Thanks for reading.
TW

Undercurrent

I does sound a lot like you're being railroaded. If you're not seeing results from the accupuncture, and don't want to continue it, the accupuncturist should be trying to convince [i]you[i] to continue, not your GP. Even if you decided to keep going with the accupuncture, I'd ditch that guy, (and possibly even the GP if he didn't immediately tell the accu guy off,) for that kind of bullshit.

As for actual evidence of accupuncture doing anything you might want to check out quackwatch. To my knowledge, accupunture has never been demostrated to help with any medical condition at all, except perhaps as a mild analgesic, and even that is disputed.

ju'iblex

I say go get second and third opinions, the GP obviously has no clue and the acupuncturist obviously wants his cash.

pz

Your doctor is promoting pure quackery. Dump him.

Loren Pechtel

I won't be as negative as some of the people on here. I'm married to an acupuncturist and I've seen her help a lot of people over the years. I didn't used to think much of it, either, but I find what her patients say to be hard to deny.

On the other hand, if you are seeing no improvement I would not suggest going.

One thing she has said (I'm not qualified to evaluate it very well) is that most of the acupuncturists here in the states at least are not very good.

My wife has helped several patients who did not get help from some of the other doctors in town.

Until recently the board here would not accept anybody that had not been trained in the orient. It's possible there was protectionism involved (many people alledge it, and I think there was some of it, but I don't think it was the main factor. The legitimate gripe was with an excessively long internship requirement. Most of it seemed to be people who had training the board considered inadequate who noticed that Nevada had far fewer acupuncturists than California and wanted to cash in. My wife does not consider their training adequate, either.) On the other hand, there's the woman that took the test at the same time she did. She had been practicing in California for 7 years. On the proctored test she kept trying to ask my wife questions about the material--just because the proctor could not understand the language did not mean that he couldn't tell what was going on. Said woman flunked *EVERY* section of the test--and went back to practicing in California. I do not know for sure that it's the same woman but it's very likely (if it's not it's another woman from California who took the test either one session before or after my wife): A test question about what they would do with a patient with syphillis. (I suppose this was there to catch those who thought they could do everything.) Her answer: Send them to the fire department. Back then you could take the test in any language you chose, this wasn't a translation problem.

Also, we have the problem of MD's who take a seminar in it and think they can actually use it. Sorry--my wife has about 3 years of training that is not doubled-up with the training MD's get (and she took 3 more years beyond what was required). A 3-day weekend can't match that! An MD will know enough not to do harm but that's about it.

In other words, be careful about qualifications!

Treacle Worshipper

Thank you all for your responses.

Originally posted by Undercurrent
I does sound a lot like you're being railroaded. If you're not seeing results from the accupuncture, and don't want to continue it, the accupuncturist should be trying to convince [i]you[i] to continue, not your GP.

I think she went behind my back to my GP 'cos she knew I was going to give it up. (I have a personality clash with this woman anyway.)

Even if you decided to keep going with the accupuncture, I'd ditch that guy, (and possibly even the GP if he didn't immediately tell the accu guy off,) for that kind of bullshit.

Believe me, my GP will be hearing my extreme displeasure about this situation.

quackwatch.

Thanks for the link, it's very interesting.

ju'iblex, pz
Thanks for your concern. It took me a long time to find my GP, I'm not going to dump him because of something the acu says he said, which he might not have said in the first place! He's been very good apart from this one instance

Loren,
Thanks for the further info. I'm not worried about her qualifications because she is working within the NHS. The NHS apparently accepts that acu can have some value - certainly the BMA does: British Medical Association Backs Acupuncture. I've spoken to some people who have seen improvement with acu, but it doesn't seem to be working on whatever it is I've got.

A test question about what they would do with a patient with syphillis. (I suppose this was there to catch those who thought they could do everything.) Her answer: Send them to the fire department.

Eh? I'm glad they didn't let her practise; remind me never to move to California

TW

livius drusus

Treacle Worshipper -

There have been some very heated dicussions of acupuncture on this board, but I am lost without the search feature. You've already received some great information here and I think there's more to be had in the S&S forum.

Best of luck to you.

Born Free

Sorry to hear you're having problems with this TW, it works for some but I suppose it boils down to what you're getting it for. I've never heard of it being used on someone with ME at all never mind if it does any good.

My partner paid for his own accupuncture (pain management) for a while because nobody told him he could get it on the NHS not even his doctor who is a shoddy poor excuse for one and I say this for other reasons as well but that's another story.

Anyway he goes once a week and she is not as good as the chinese doctor that had been doing it. He cleared up his tennis elbow in 3 visits he was that good plus partner was pain free for 3-4 days with the shoulder. With her doing it there is no pain relief at all. I would say something if it were me but he's not the type.

It's a pity that the NHS wouldn't consider your being able to try a Chinese doctor for that just to see if there was any difference or improvement. I have to say that's two so far NHS accupuncturists that don't appear to help much, maybe it's their training I don't know. I guess her bedside manner leaves a lot to be desired as well??? That's one thing that really gets on my nerves is health workers with an attitude problem.

I really wish I could offer more in the way of advice or comfort, but the same offer stands as before, I'm here and all ears when and if you need to vent.

Take care TW and stay as positive as you can.

callmejay

Treacle Worshipper:

I have chronic pain in my arms and what I discovered is that you have to take charge of your own health if no one else is willing or able to do it for you. I went to 4 different doctors (and got 4 different diagnoses) and a few PTs. Eventually, I figured out how to live with, if not cure, what I've got. So if the accupuncture isn't working, go look for something else.

On a more specific note, have you tried going to a massage therapist?

Treacle Worshipper

livius drusus
You've already received some great information here and I think there's more to be had in the S&S forum.

Best of luck to you.

Thanks livius. No-one seems to desire heated debate at the moment

alli
I have to say that's two so far NHS accupuncturists that don't appear to help much, maybe it's their training I don't know.

Could well be, if it's that widespread.

I guess her bedside manner leaves a lot to be desired as well??? That's one thing that really gets on my nerves is health workers with an attitude problem.

She's not got an attitude problem, she's just so vague. Everything I know about acu I found out on the web ~shrug~ You ask her how something works and she talks about the weather Unless she wants you to continue treatment. Then she tells you what you're going to do

callmejay
I have chronic pain in my arms and what I discovered is that you have to take charge of your own health if no one else is willing or able to do it for you. I went to 4 different doctors (and got 4 different diagnoses) and a few PTs. Eventually, I figured out how to live with, if not cure, what I've got.

So far, my GP, the general specialist at the hospital & the neurological specialist in Swansea all haven't a clue, altho' they all say I have "neurological symptoms", whatever that means. Hence the referral to the ME specialist. The NHS is just... so... slow... It took a friend of mine a year to get and MS diagnosis - and they had a pretty good idea of what was wrong with her from the beginning.

So if the accupuncture isn't working, go look for something else.
On a more specific note, have you tried going to a massage therapist?

I keep trying. Physio, massage, even cranio-sacral therapy. Things that help are those that use the muscles - loosens everything up. Physio is good & so is massage (which unfortunately I can't afford too often). But nothing seems to get to the root of the problem. I think it's going to be a case of managing whatever-it-is, rather than curing it.

Would still be nice if they could find out what it is, tho'.

TW