Ron Singh

1) I'll suppose this for sake of argument.
2) Hell is a sense of perception.
3) Because what we perceive is not love does not mean that hell can not exist.
4) Hell can not exist without God.
5) hyperbole/analogy not bearing any truth in regards to reality
6) Not by premises 2-5, while supposing premise 1.

~Your friendly neighborhood 15yr old Sikh.

tergiversant

*sigh*

You have clearly misconstrued the import of nearly every premise (especially #2). Please read through the entire thread, it may clear things up quite a bit.

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Autonemesis

Do you mean to tell me, that in your version of Pascal's wager, if I'm wrong then what will happen to me when I die is exactly what I expect to happen - the end of my consciousness? So if I'm wrong, and god does exist, I die and that's the end of it. But if I'm right, and he doesn't, I die and that's the end of it.

Yes?

post-it

Right, a no lose situation for the unbeliever. Great huh? You get exactly what you expect and the believer gets exactly what we expect. In a way "heaven" for both sides.

post-it

God already put us in the Betty Ford Clinic, its called "earth."

Why do you think that annihilation after death is not just? Why would you think that humans have any greater right to live on after this life than trees or other animals have? You don't think we are special or God created do you? Therefore, if God exists and you don't believe he exists, then there is no loss on your part. Right?

Tristan Scott

Psalms 9.17

2 Peter 2.4

In the Tannakh, hell is used more allegorically, like in the Book of Jonah where he says:

It is used mostly that way in the NT as well. Like in Revellation:

and...

In fact it is very possible that hell is meant to be an allegory throughout scripture.

post-it

You are giving me a presupposition that hell means everlasting torment. The verses you provided only establish that hell exists; it doesn't give any attributes of hell. (not counting the one about the place where angels are placed. But that establishes that angels have eternal life which unsaved man does not. Only those saved are "gifted" eternal life.

So we're back to "Where does it clearly say that after death, the non-believer will suffer torment forever in hell?

Tristan Scott

Sorry, Post-it, I misunderstood the question. There are some apochryphal descriptions of hell, specifically the Apochalypse of Peter, but the idea you are speaking of is not in the Bible. Instead it comes from the 4th century and was placed into Early Church doctrine as the Athanasian Creed: "They that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire".

Taffy Lewis

post-it:

You asked:

If God is perfectly loving it seems odd that he should give us the power to destroy ourselves. Good parents normally would want to do whatever they could to prevent a child from killing themselves. Wouldn't God behave similarly?

tergiversant

If love entails desiring what is best for the beloved, the annihilationist Christian would have to maintain that oblivion is somehow in the unbelievers best interest.

As to the matter of justice, does the crime of unbelief warrant utter destruction? If my children were lost at sea and forgot about my existence, I would go to them and make my existence clear to them, rather than destroy them for their doubtful nature.

In brief, I've yet to see in what sense "oblivion hell" is just or loving. Moreso than "inferno hell," perhaps, but not nearly so nice as, say, Earth, which itself could stand some improvement.

tergiversant@OklahomaAtheists.org

<a href="http://www.OklahomaAtheists.org" target="_blank">ATHEISTS of OKLAHOMA</a>

"Atheists are OK."