Freethought & Rationalism Archive

HelenM · 01-19-2002, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by QueenofSwords:
Helen: In science you throw out a theory once you realize it doesn't fit your observations. But in theology it seems that one is allowed to deny the observations or reinterpret them until they fit the theory.

Heh. Not only do you throw out the faulty theory in science, you try to do so before the other scientists trample you and your theory into the dust.

Helen, that observation was insightful and concise. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Thanks, QofS

What I said was a rant but it does sum up one of my key frustrations with 'Christianity'.

Christians who supposedly believe this: "the truth will set you free" often live lives of fear and avoidance. This makes no sense to me. Jesus, according to the story as handed down, was not afraid of anything. So he was truly free. Even if it's just a story I still find it very inspirational in many ways and probably always will. Do I pick and choose what I think is worth emulating, from the Bible? Yes - but at least I admit it!

love
Helen

-DM- · 01-19-2002, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenSL:
... Jesus, according to the story as handed down, was not afraid of anything.

According to the story as handed down, there is evidence to the contrary.

---------

MT 10:28, LK 12:4 Jesus says not to fear men, to fear God only.
MT 12:15-16, JN 7:1-10, 8:59, 10:39, 11:53-54 Jesus hid, escaped, went secretly, etc. [Note regarding JN 7:2-10: The words "not yet" were added to some versions at JN 7:8 in order to alleviate this problem. The context at JN 7:10 makes the deception clear, however.]

MT 26:39, MK 14:36, LK 22:42 "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: ...."

MT 27:46, MK 15:34, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

---------

--Don--

HelenM · 01-19-2002, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Morgan:

According to the story as handed down, there is evidence to the contrary.

---------

MT 10:28, LK 12:4 Jesus says not to fear men, to fear God only.

Yes but right after that he says "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows." So I'd say in context he was not talking about 'fear' but 'respect' as in, we respect the traffic laws like speed limits and don't go too fast. That's my opinion; I could be wrong. But I don't think he's talking about fear as in fear that prevents one doing something worthwhile.

MT 12:15-16, JN 7:1-10, 8:59, 10:39, 11:53-54 Jesus hid, escaped, went secretly, etc. [Note regarding JN 7:2-10: The words "not yet" were added to some versions at JN 7:8 in order to alleviate this problem. The context at JN 7:10 makes the deception clear, however.]

That doesn't mean he was afraid. Maybe he was just avoiding being caught for the moment. The John passage says it was because 'his time had not yet come'. He could have been afraid - but it's not the only explanation, Don

MT 26:39, MK 14:36, LK 22:42 "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: ...."

Not necessarily fear. He didn't want to do what seemed to lie ahead for him. Doesn't mean he was afraid; he could have been but not necessarily.

MT 27:46, MK 15:34, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Asking 'why' doesn't mean someone's afraid. They might be; they might not be. He could have been lonely, almost despairing; doesn't mean he was afraid.

I don't see these as conclusive, Don

But anyway to clarify so as not to get lost in details...what I really meant was that in the story of Jesus I see a man who was not afraid of other people. In fact you quoted a verse about him saying not to fear men. And I find that inspirational, myself.

I also don't think he was afraid of God in a way that held him back in life. Maybe you think otherwise. But again I find that inspirational, as a person seeking not to be too afraid of other people to be able to choose rationally how to react and respond and interact with them. And to be able to think rationally through what makes sense to do with my days and my life - not hindered by undue amounts of fear of any being, physical and/or supernatural

It's not about the texts per se. I could still be inspired by them regardless of whether we read them the same way and regardless of how truthful we find them, respectively.

Thank you for your comments, Don

love
Helen

-DM- · 01-19-2002, 12:20 PM

Yes, "not necessarily," "not necessarily," etc., etc. -- but as I said, "evidence" to the contrary.

But where, in the story that was handed down does it say that "Jesus ... was not afraid of anything"? In my estimation, this claim is not unlike so many other claims about the allegedly perfect Jesus (for which the evidence as we have it seems to me to indicate otherwise). And certainly it is NOT conclusive that he "was not afraid of anything."

Regarding fearing other people; it is foolhardy not to have some fear of other people, especially certain people in certain circumstances. In this regard, the old clich�/joke comes to mind: "Trust Jesus -- but lock your doors anyway."

--Don--

HelenM · 01-19-2002, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Morgan:
Yes, "not necessarily," "not necessarily," etc., etc. -- but as I said, "evidence" to the contrary.

I seem to read the evidence differently from you. I have never thought those things you cited indicated fear.

But you're entitled to your own opinion/perceptions/reasoning/conclusions and I respect them.

But where, in the story that was handed down does it say that "Jesus ... was not afraid of anything"? In my estimation, this claim is not unlike so many other claims about the allegedly perfect Jesus (for which the evidence as we have it seems to me to indicate otherwise). And certainly it is NOT conclusive that he "was not afraid of anything."

Fair enough; I should have said it overtly; my last post was intended as a retraction of that. I retract that as a general assertion - there; how's that?

Regarding fearing other people; it is foolhardy not to have some fear of other people, especially certain people in certain circumstances. In this regard, the old clich�/joke comes to mind: "Trust Jesus -- but lock your doors anyway."

Yeah yeah; I didn't mean, don't protect yourself against unsafe people. I meant, don't be intimidated by people out of doing what you believe is the right thing to do. Don't orient your life towards people-pleasing - it's futile. But I believe in not unnecessarily offending; and there are lots of things other Christians do that they think is not offensive that I do think is offensive. So I am relatively conservative in that regard.

love
Helen

Ron Garrett · 01-21-2002, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenSL:
Theologically, you aren't supposed to exist, Ron. Or you are wrong that you really were a Christian - you must have missed something and not actually got saved...

No offense.

That's why I am very frustrated with theology.

In science you throw out a theory once you realize it doesn't fit your observations. But in theology it seems that one is allowed to deny the observations or reinterpret them until they fit the theory.

love
Helen

Well of course the faithful have to take that approach, don't they? If they claim conversion is supernatural experience of the direct intervention of God resulting in the indwelling of the very spirit of God and eternal life, then apostasy can only mean that no conversion took place. In effect, apostates cannot actually exist (though scripture makes plain that salvation can be lost). Theologically this notion that Walk Aways were never converted in the first place is the result of the "once saved, always saved" doctrine that actually conflicts with the wtiness of scripture in my opinion, as you recall from the "How Do you Know When You're Saved" thread.

HelenM · 01-21-2002, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Garrett:
Well of course the faithful have to take that approach, don't they? If they claim conversion is supernatural experience of the direct intervention of God resulting in the indwelling of the very spirit of God and eternal life, then apostasy can only mean that no conversion took place.

Funny that by simply checking what their theology says, and without any knowledge of you, they yet can know more about you spiritually, in this regard, than you can even know yourself! I.e. they can know you were never converted, just from their theology! Regardless of your own experience and your own testimony.

In effect, apostates cannot actually exist (though scripture makes plain that salvation can be lost). Theologically this notion that Walk Aways were never converted in the first place is the result of the "once saved, always saved" doctrine that actually conflicts with the witness of scripture in my opinion, as you recall from the "How Do you Know When You're Saved" thread.

Yes, I know that you see that teaching as against Scripture.

I'd say that the weight of Scripture supports it, myself.

But what can one say of a book that two Christians [two Christians - I know you said you aren't] can read and come to opposite conclusions about it's position on "once saved, always saved"? How do you know you are getting 'the right message' from a book like that?

Ack...I am ranting too much. I still haven't figured out how not to...

love
Helen

[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: HelenSL ]

Ron Garrett · 01-21-2002, 12:32 PM

Well, I understand why I can't agree on the meaning of scripture, since I'm an apostate and was never truly converted (humbug), but the real question remains as to why the millions and millions of spirit filled and spirit led true converts keep fighting over it. It all indicates to me that that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit isn't all that efficacious as regards leading the believers into all truth as promised.

Muad'Dib · 01-23-2002, 04:30 PM

Did we lose Tom in KC? It's a shame, he was a polite fellow.

dwp666 · 01-24-2002, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Muad'Dib:
Did we lose Tom in KC? It's a shame, he was a polite fellow.

I hope he is just taking some and reading the articles in the library like he indicated to me he was going to do.

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01-19-2002, 12:20 PM	#84
-DM- Honorary Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: West Coast Posts: 5,714	Yes, "not necessarily," "not necessarily," etc., etc. -- but as I said, "evidence" to the contrary. But where, in the story that was handed down does it say that "Jesus ... was not afraid of anything"? In my estimation, this claim is not unlike so many other claims about the allegedly perfect Jesus (for which the evidence as we have it seems to me to indicate otherwise). And certainly it is NOT conclusive that he "was not afraid of anything." Regarding fearing other people; it is foolhardy not to have some fear of other people, especially certain people in certain circumstances. In this regard, the old clich�/joke comes to mind: "Trust Jesus -- but lock your doors anyway." --Don--

01-21-2002, 12:32 PM	#88
Ron Garrett Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: United States Posts: 1,657	Well, I understand why I can't agree on the meaning of scripture, since I'm an apostate and was never truly converted (humbug), but the real question remains as to why the millions and millions of spirit filled and spirit led true converts keep fighting over it. It all indicates to me that that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit isn't all that efficacious as regards leading the believers into all truth as promised.

01-23-2002, 04:30 PM	#89
Muad'Dib Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 845	Did we lose Tom in KC? It's a shame, he was a polite fellow.

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