Baidarka

I have been trying to have a discussion about Political Bible vs. Spiritual Bible - in the Biblical Criticism & Archaeology forum. This discussion has branched off into a discussion about Astrology with an Astrology proponent named Volker.

I wrote the following:
“Astrology is an old obsolete system invented by people who believed the earth was flat and that the sun revolved around it. They had no idea how far the sun, the moon, the planets, and stars are from earth. They had no idea what the heavenly bodies are or what they are made of. I lived through the 1960s a time when every introduction was accompanied by the query “what sign are you?” My statement about astrology is a general statement of my position on the subject and is not a personal attack against you.”
For some reason Volker is taking my disbelief personally.
I would like to pose a few questions for Volker or any other believer in Astrology.
1) For most of the history of Astrology there were only 7 known planets. Now that there are 9 known planets with numerous moons and an asteroid belt in our solar system, how does this affect modern Astrologists? Do you now use all 9 planets in your charts? If not, why not? If you now add these 2 planets to your charts does this mean that the old 7 planet Astrologers were all wet?
2) Doctors can now determine the moment of birth by inducing labor or by performing a caesarian. Does this mean that a child’s fate can be controlled by choosing the most auspicious moment for the birth?

Astrology and the belief in fate encourage absurd ideas. I’ve spoken to soldiers who had convinced themselves that since ones day of death is predestined it makes no difference whether one goes to war or stays home, your fated death will come when it is supposed to. Be it by bullet or drunken driver. This may be comforting for some soldiers but I think that this kind of fuzzy thinking should have no place in our very real world.

Volker.Doormann

No. It is not your disbelief, what is the point of the disput. It is the assertion: "Volker, Your belief in the efficacy of Astrology as a meaningful system for understanding the world is totally naïve." which I have understand as addressed personally to me. Its not up to you to decide about the grade of my naivity and not about the quality of my profession without any competence.

In my understanding of a fruitful discussion, it is necessary to reply on the very same arguments which are stated. Some postings ago I have you let know: "I see that you do not reply on any of my arguments in any way third time." Nevertheless I have continued writing a lot of arguments to your questions, without any reply on the subject until today. I have shown to you, that your position is based on superstition about astrology, because of your wrong imagination that a flat earth belief or the knowledge of the material composition of planets is essential for astrology. Now you come up again with another new thread and new questions. Please show me, what the basis is of your knowing or knowledge. If there is nothing, I think it is worthless to answer your questions; no one of any reason is speaking to a black hole for long. If we have a common base in understanding, we can build on that.
As in music using 12 notes than 8 in a scale, the planets of Uranus, Neptune and Pluto give more bits to use and understand nature. It is not an affection; it is an extension.
Yes. I make use of the 10 bodies: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Neptune, Uranus, Pluto and the Moons nodes.
If you use 12 notes in a music score does this mean that the old 8 notes Composer's were all wet?
I think, the point is, that there is no cause without an effect. If you send out your child's to buy a newspaper, when it is raining, this results in an other effect, as if you send out your children if it's dry. It is your very own free decision. Maybe your child come back with a wet newspaper, maybe with broken legs, maybe with a son-in-law. You never can control all the effects of an acting. But it is very easy to recognize, that a born baby in Africa in 1800 C.E. for sure is not affected with AIDS, or a baby born in 1985 in Tschernobyl, Russia, has a different lot, as a baby born in 1980 in York Beach, Maine. If one is thinking, that there are allways the same initial conditions for a born baby, he rejects reality. Astrologers never think to be manipulate nature; Astrologers can give help to understand the reality of each birth, as it is in all aspects. Are your brother the Una bomber? Are your uncle Charles Mason? What is the reason, that there are different lots to different individuals born out of nothing? I have written a software, which calculates and describes very direct some 50 relevant specific character meanings out of about 1000 different astrological symbols (to me) known (and filed in that program) possible in a chart of a born person. This chart is a plot of the 12 spiritual houses - 4 times 3 houses aligned to the cardinal sky directions - and it's sky light's (planets) above and beyond the horizon with it's harmonic and/or disharmonic patterns. It is a simple tool to analyze talents and lacks of the psyche and it's stamp while birth. There is no need to a belief, if human character properties are real properties of the individual. I have done in a retro manner some 6-7 symbols selected out only by reading some text of a person in IN, that I don't know personally. Because this symbols were not very comfortable described, that person has denied this symbols as assumed wrong by me. But because the person has given some encoded information on other planetary positions, I have found the day of birth of this person, and all that 6-7 symbols I have assumed to be in his chart were absolute correct. Then this person has confirmed the day of birth for true. I do not have the impression, that this does help in any way to affect the superstition belief of skeptics, that astrology is a belief system. Each one can read his individual horoscope and can decide himself, whether there is random bullshit to read or descriptions of the own known character. Abstract discussions about 'planets' may this or may not that are IMO senseless.

Volker

Baidarka

“Its not up to you to decide about the grade of my naivity and not about the quality of my profession without any competence.”
Volker there are and have been many forms of magical divination from the reading of entrails to tea leaves. I do not need expertise in the methodology used by the practitioners of these various “arts” to form an opinion about these magical forms. I do not need expertise in Astrology to realize that a system which connects human fate and emotions to the movements of the planets may be an Art but is not a science. I have read that Sir Isaac Newton studied mathematics in order to do Astrology. I am grateful that our culture benefited from Newton’s naïve delusion.
“I have shown to you, that your position is based on superstition about astrology, because of your wrong imagination that a flat earth belief or the knowledge of the material composition of planets is essential for astrology. Now you come up again with another new thread and new questions. Please show me, what the basis is of your knowing or knowledge.”
I do not think that you need knowledge of the real nature of our solar system to do astrological calculations but I do believe that without this knowledge you are making predictions based on a false model of reality. “Garbage in – Garbage out”.
“As in music using 12 notes than 8 in a scale, the planets of Uranus, Neptune and Pluto give more bits to use and understand nature. It is not an affection; it is an extension.”
This is fine if Astrology is just an Art. But if you are trying to build a paradigm which sheds light on the real world then your model must recognize all the elements that are pertinent to your calculations. If you leave out important elements then your calculations will yield false results. If the planet are powerful elements influencing our fates and personalities then missing planets would throw your calculations into meaningless chaos.
“If you use 12 notes in a music score does this mean that the old 8 notes Composer's were all wet?”

If you were a navigator with an inaccurate clock all your calculations would be all wet. This is an objective question to which you have given me a subjective answer.

“Astrologers never think to be manipulate nature; Astrologers can give help to understand the reality of each birth, as it is in all aspects.”



Why not? I proposed what I thought would be a very practical application for Astrology. The Astrologer picks the best time, date and place for a birth and a cooperative doctor brings the baby into the world at precisely the right moment. Happy baby, healthy life. What’s wrong with this practical new application for your Art? Except that your Art really can not produce any real practical results.


“I have written a software, which calculates and describes very direct some 50 relevant specific character meanings out of about 1000 different astrological symbols (to me) known (and filed in that program) possible in a chart of a born person. This chart is a plot of the 12 spiritual houses - 4 times 3 houses aligned to the cardinal sky directions - and it's sky light's (planets) above and beyond the horizon with it's harmonic and/or disharmonic patterns. It is a simple tool to analyze talents and lacks of the psyche and it's stamp while birth.”

I am not questioning your ability to do complex calculations I simply disagree with your belief that these calculations have any meaning.

Just before the last US Presidential election I saw an interview with an Astrologer on TV. The guy appeared to be intelligent and sincere.
The interviewer asked who would win the election. I will try to paraphrase.
Since Abe Lincoln there has been a 20 year cycle in which every president elected on the 20th year, except Ronald died in office. (He then went into an astrological explanation as to why Ronnie managed to get away with it. Then he said that the cycle will now continue).
George Bush can not win because his chart clearly shows that he will not die in the next 4 years.
Al Gore’s chart shows that these 4 years could be his swan song.
So Al Gore will win the election!

All Magicians are either delusional or phony. There are no exceptions.

Volker.Doormann

Astrologers are well aware about the real nature of the space-time harmony of 3:2 in the planetary resonance's. It is a desinformation created from you to assert this as my words. I have rejected the knowledge of material composition and the distances of the planets only. I never have claimed to make predictions. I have given to you provable examples of significant evidence (usenet archiv). You have ignored that, and tells me second hand gossip.

I am not interested in your personal belief.

EOD

Volker

Baidarka

Volker:

V-“ In my understanding of a fruitful discussion, it is necessary to reply on the very same arguments which are stated. Some postings ago I have you let know: "I see that you do not reply on any of my arguments in any way third time." Nevertheless I have continued writing a lot of arguments to your questions, without any reply on the subject until today. I have shown to you, that your position is based on superstition about astrology, because of your wrong imagination that a flat earth belief or the knowledge of the material composition of planets is essential for astrology. Now you come up again with another new thread and new questions. Please show me, what the basis is of your knowing or knowledge. If there is nothing, I think it is worthless to answer your questions; no one of any reason is speaking to a black hole for long. If we have a common base in understanding, we can build on that”
B- I am sorry that you feel that I have not been responding to your arguments. I have been trying but I can not argue from within your astrological paradigm. I can not do this because I believe that what you are saying is without any foundation in reality. From my perspective it is like arguing with an entrails reader who has just cut open a chicken and is now trying to divine the future from twists in the intestines and the color of the spleen. I don’t care how eloquent the fellow is or how complex and subtle his methods are. I don’t care if he uses a computer and does complex calculations.
V-“Astrologers are well aware about the real nature of the space-time harmony of 3:2 in the planetary resonance's.”
B- What does this mean? By what means does planetary resonance reach us and why is this unaffected by distance from the Earth? Why is it unaffected by the size and mass of the various Heavenly bodies? I ask this because you seem to believe that distance and composition are irrelavent.

V-“It is a desinformation created from you to assert this as my words. I have rejected the knowledge of material composition and the distances of the planets only. I never have claimed to make predictions. I have given to you provable examples of significant evidence (usenet archiv). You have ignored that, and tells me second hand gossip.

I am not interested in your personal belief.”
B- I am sorry if I misrepresented your idea of what Astrology is.
Please try to give us a brief idea of what you think Astrology is and how it can be used.
The sun and moon have a very real influence over the ocean tides. This is a result of the gravitational pull of the sun and moon on the oceans of our planet. The height of the tide can be calculated from the positions of the sun and moon relative to the Earth. (I have tidal predictions for my local waters in my Palm Pilot which are good for the next 50 years.)
The masses of the sun and moon and their distances from the earth are very important factors in measuring and understanding this phenomenon.
This is a real phenomenon with a real scientific explanation.
If Astrology is a real phenomenon then it must have a real explanation.
If Astrology is a real phenomenon what emanates from the heavenly bodies to cause it?
If Mars influences War and anger what does Pluto influence?

Volker.Doormann

OK. Please note my posting from today in GRD, thread : Eternity in the garden.
Pluto is a symbol for transformation. The old is dying with pain, and the new is of an other consiousness. You are never the same as before.

Volker

Baidarka

Volker:


V - “ Pluto is a symbol for transformation. The old is dying with pain, and the new is of an other consiousness. You are never the same as before.”
B - So as new heavenly bodies are found they are assigned properties. How is this done and by whom? What measurements were taken to determine that Pluto should symbolize “transformation”? This sounds arbitrary. You seem to be suggesting that the universe is symbolic and not concrete.
Pluto is a planet and not a symbol. You can use Pluto as a symbol but this has no effect on objective reality. Your assertion is meaningless. If I stated that Pluto was the laughing planet and that it makes everything funny how could you counter that? You seem to be making a groundless assertion.
S. Freud - “Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.”

Shadowy Man

What about Ceres? Why not include it?

Volker.Doormann

Volker: "I make use of the 10 bodies: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Neptune, Uranus, Pluto and the Moons nodes."
Simple because I have no astrological experience with that body. Other astrologers acknowledge Ceres, as well some other body’s as Chiron p.e. I do calculate the geocentric position of Chiron in my software, but I do not interpret this body too. There are also known orbital data of the planet 'Quaoar', next to Pluto, but I also have no experience about the astrological meaning of it. I think it takes some ten years of personal experience in practice to isolate the very own mental character of a (new) planet or asteroid.

Volker

Shadowy Man

But if you don't include one of the major bodies of the Solar System, one whose existence has been known for an extremely long time, wouldn't that affect the "accuracy" of your predictions?

On what characteristics is the effect of a "planet" on a person dependent? It's size? Distance? It's size over the square of the distance? Why do the planet's affect us at all?