Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 05-22-2002, 12:33 AM

<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-School-Prayer-Suit.html" target="_blank">A teacher upset that his seventh-grade daughter would have to sit through a prayer at graduation filed a lawsuit seeking to stop the practice.</a>

Quote:

"It's overwhelming," said Mr. Shields, a mathematics teacher at Plainview. "There is religion mixed into so much about the school."

Mr. Shields said he and his family were atheists. "This area is mostly Christian, and that's why it's not a problem for anyone else at the school," he said.

According to the lawsuit, Christian prayers are regularly delivered at events and meetings sponsored and organized by the K-12 school, about 140 miles east of Denver.

Superintendent Johnny Holcomb said the district tries to comply with the First Amendment and the lawsuit was a surprise.

[ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]

Dark Jedi · 05-22-2002, 12:35 PM

New York times requires registration. Can you post to a free paper or the basic facts so I can locate articles I can view?

Toto · 05-22-2002, 01:08 PM

Registration is free. I put the basic facts in the paragraphs I excerpted.

But here's the same story on the AP wire:

<a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020521/ap_on_re_us/school_prayer_suit_1" target="_blank">Teacher Sues School Over Prayer </a>

Dark Jedi · 05-23-2002, 08:41 AM

Thanks. PlainView is what I needed to follow up.

As for NYT, I don't register for news. They don't need to know who I am to send me the news. Too many marketers out there that want to intrude on my life.

Jimmy Higgins · 05-23-2002, 08:55 AM

You know, being as anti-religion as I am, I'm beginning to dislike these atheists that won't have religion anywhere. Granted, a student led prayer is unconstitutional, but these people are leading these prayers anyways. Don't we have bigger things to worry about when it comes to religious oppression like the ban on embryonic stem cell research?

These prayers aren't hurting us. And when we complain, it makes us look meek.

Toto · 05-23-2002, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy Higgins:
You know, being as anti-religion as I am, I'm beginning to dislike these atheists that won't have religion anywhere. Granted, a student led prayer is unconstitutional, but these people are leading these prayers anyways. Don't we have bigger things to worry about when it comes to religious oppression like the ban on embryonic stem cell research?

These prayers aren't hurting us. And when we complain, it makes us look meek.

Meek? I think you want some other word.

Yes, we have bigger things to worry about, but why should blatantly unconsitutional activity be allowed?

Anyhow, from the infidels wire, here is an editorial trashing Shields, which gives some more background (with my replies):

<a href="http://www.gazette.com/stories/0522opin1-1.php" target="_blank">A little tolerance would go a long way in ever-more-tedious church-state debate</a>

Quote:

We'd like to think most Americans - believers and non-believers alike - would agree that hounding every last reference to spirituality out of public life is neither the intent of the First Amendment nor in the interest of a civil society.

Hold on here - you notice the attempt to force a consensus by misstating the other side's position? This is not about "references" to "spirituality" - it is about a government sponsored religious exercise.

Quote:

Our guess is the founders of this republic, in drafting its charter document and its first 10 amendments, were far more concerned about forestalling the establishment of a state religion such as the Church of England than about the possibility that, someday, a student might lead classmates in prayer at a Middle American high school's commencement exercises.

Government sponsored prayer is government preference for religion. The founding fathers were concerned about the majority using state power to force its views and practices on dissenters, which is what is happening here.

Quote:

But that hasn't stopped a small-town Colorado schoolteacher, upset that his seventh-grade daughter will have to sit through a prayer at graduation, from filing a lawsuit this week in federal court to stop the practice. Sean Shields contends that a student-led prayer set to be read at the 2002 class graduation at Plainview School - in Sheridan Lakes, 140 miles east of Denver - on Saturday violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

The American Civil Liberties Union filed the suit in U.S. District Court in Denver, seeking an injunction against Kiowa County School District RE-2 on behalf of Shields and his daughter, who will serve as an usher at the graduation.

Shields, who describes himself and his family as atheists, says Christian prayers are regularly delivered at events and meetings sponsored and organized by the school. The graduation prayer used to be delivered by a minister until Shields complained in 2001 that the policy was unlawful. The school now allows the seniors to decide whether to have a moment of silence, no message or a prayer read by a student.

The 2002 class voted for a moment of silence, but after receiving complaints about the absence of prayer, the students voted again and chose to pray.

Who complained? The losers in the vote? And how did they persuade the majority to change their minds?

Quote:

Our best, latest understanding of court precedent on this matter is that prayers at school must be student-led and organized and cannot appear to have the imprimatur of school officials. There's no doubt something of a gray area in that. Notably, in this case, if a student delivers the prayer but it's over a microphone at a school-sponsored ceremony, which side of the church-state line does it fall on?

That doesn't sound like a gray area to me. When you pay for the microphone, you control the ceremony.

Quote:

The courts, apparently, will decide. Too bad it had to come to that, though. We can't help wonder just how much of an infringement prayer really is - on Shields or anyone else. Those who believe in the Almighty may pray along; those who view prayer as an empty formality can daydream.

Clueless, that's all I can say. I'd like to see the Christian reaction if the prayer were a pagan ceremony.

Quote:

In any event, is a public prayer delivered by students truly establishing a religion? More to the point, does it really impose upon others' beliefs?

Yes.

Jamie_L · 05-23-2002, 10:43 AM

Do we have more important things to worry about? Yes. Does that make these kinds of things unimportant? No.

The religious majority in this country assumes everyone thinks like they do. They assume they have a right to put their beliefs first and others second. As long as they maintain this attitude, non-believers and those of other faiths will be marginalized and looked down on.

We have to stand up for our rights everywhere, or not at all. Being selective about it makes us look calculating or insincere.

Imagine a class president planned to give a speech at graduation. As usual in such cases, he gives his speech to school authorities for pre-approval. If that speech praised atheism and humanism, and encouraged abandonment of religion, would the religious minority rally behind his "right" to preech the anti-gospel?

Somehow I doubt it. And if we can't do it, they can't do it either.

Jamie

never been there · 05-23-2002, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamie_L:
Imagine a class president planned to give a speech at graduation. As usual in such cases, he gives his speech to school authorities for pre-approval.

Guess I should give my high school more credit. I was elected valedictorian by the class, and the only review of my draft speech was by my English teacher because I wanted his advice on its literary merits.

And the administration didn't even hold it against me that two weeks earlier I had streaked the main hallway at lunch hour.

Jesus Freak · 05-24-2002, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy Higgins:
Granted, a student led prayer is unconstitutional.

how is it unconstitutional?

Toto · 05-24-2002, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jesus Freak:


how is it unconstitutional?

A student led prayer is only unconstitutional when the school administration gives that student authority, and places its stamp of approval on the prayer, as is the case when the student gives the prayer at an official school function. A student led prayer around a flagpole before school starts is not unconstitutional.

It is unconstitutional because it shows government preference for religion, in violation of the First and Fourteenth amendments to the US Constitution.

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05-22-2002, 12:35 PM	#2
Dark Jedi Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Afghanistan Posts: 4,666	New York times requires registration. Can you post to a free paper or the basic facts so I can locate articles I can view?

05-22-2002, 01:08 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Registration is free. I put the basic facts in the paragraphs I excerpted. But here's the same story on the AP wire: <a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020521/ap_on_re_us/school_prayer_suit_1" target="_blank">Teacher Sues School Over Prayer </a>

05-23-2002, 08:41 AM	#4
Dark Jedi Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Afghanistan Posts: 4,666	Thanks. PlainView is what I needed to follow up. As for NYT, I don't register for news. They don't need to know who I am to send me the news. Too many marketers out there that want to intrude on my life.

05-23-2002, 08:55 AM	#5
Jimmy Higgins Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Proud Citizen of Freedonia Posts: 42,473	You know, being as anti-religion as I am, I'm beginning to dislike these atheists that won't have religion anywhere. Granted, a student led prayer is unconstitutional, but these people are leading these prayers anyways. Don't we have bigger things to worry about when it comes to religious oppression like the ban on embryonic stem cell research? These prayers aren't hurting us. And when we complain, it makes us look meek.

05-23-2002, 10:43 AM	#7
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	Do we have more important things to worry about? Yes. Does that make these kinds of things unimportant? No. The religious majority in this country assumes everyone thinks like they do. They assume they have a right to put their beliefs first and others second. As long as they maintain this attitude, non-believers and those of other faiths will be marginalized and looked down on. We have to stand up for our rights everywhere, or not at all. Being selective about it makes us look calculating or insincere. Imagine a class president planned to give a speech at graduation. As usual in such cases, he gives his speech to school authorities for pre-approval. If that speech praised atheism and humanism, and encouraged abandonment of religion, would the religious minority rally behind his "right" to preech the anti-gospel? Somehow I doubt it. And if we can't do it, they can't do it either. Jamie

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