Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Yellum Notnef · 12-20-2002, 01:35 PM

I just got a surprise newsletter from the Joseph Campbell foundation. Here`s just a bit from the beginning......

December, 2002

THE MYTHIC DIMENSION
The official online newsletter of the Joseph Campbell Foundation

The Virgin Birth, The Cave, and The Infant

"We are all born as animals and live the life that animals live: We sleep, eat, reproduce, and fight. There is, however, another order of living, which the animals do not know, that of awe before the mystery of being, the mysterium tremendum et fascinans, that can be the root and the branch of the spiritual sense of one's days. That is the birth -- the Virgin Birth -- in the heart of a properly human, spiritual life.

"The motif of birth in a cave is also very ancient. This symbol is associated particularly with the winter solstice, when the sun has traveled to its farthest point away from the tilted earth and the light is in the nadir of the abyss...

"The cave has always been the scene of initation, where the birth of the light takes place. Here as well is found the whole idea of the cave of the heart, the dark chamber of the heart, where the light of the divine first appears. This image is also associated with the emergence of light in the beginning, out of the abyss of the early chaos, so that one senses the deep resonations of this theme.

"We have then the story and image of the birth of this wonderous child in a richly evocative setting. Let us look at other aspects of it. That there was no room in the inn is also an old story. So, too, is that of the infant in exile as the new world is born outside of the province of the old...

"What it evokes...is the birth of a new King somewhere else, outside of the sphere of the powers that be, and the ultimate overcoming of these powers by this new King."

Excerpted from Thou Art That: Transforming Religious
Metaphor
By Joseph Campbell
Pages 29, 65, and 67.

<a href="http://www.jcf.org/about_jcf.php" target="_blank">Joseph Campbell Foundation</a>

[ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: Fenton Mulley ]

Straight Hate · 12-20-2002, 01:50 PM

I am perplexed by all that is Joseph Campbell. I've read "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" as well as "The Power of Myth", and enjoyed both to a large degree. However, aside from numerous mentions of him being the 'inspiration' behind Star Wars, I hear very little about the man. Freethinkers seem to have bigger fish to fry, and Campbell does not seem register on the theists' radar.

However, as the above article shows, he was a pretty interesting character with, in my opinion, a heck of a lot to say!

Eudaimonist · 12-20-2002, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kathall:
[...] I hear very little about the man. Freethinkers seem to have bigger fish to fry, and Campbell does not seem register on the theists' radar.

Speaking of that, Campbell has some popularity among nontheists at the Fellowship of Reason, who take a special interest in Myth in learning about human psychology.

[ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: Eudaimonist ]

catman · 12-20-2002, 07:53 PM

You know you atheist like to point out how we christians overlook things in the bible. But as soon as one of your own overlooks something well--that goes whizzing right passed you. So some new king was born in a cave, huh. Where is he getting this crap at?

Bree · 12-20-2002, 08:37 PM

IMHO, of course:

Campbell said a lot of interesting and thought-provoking things, however, I have a tough time believing that all religions are essentially the same thing. IIRC, Campbell believed that since all religions are the same, it doesn't matter what one believes.

That's just a little bit tough to swallow.

seebs · 12-20-2002, 08:40 PM

I have read enough about enough religions to see what he's talking about; there are common threads everywhere.

The beauty of it is, the same searching-for-patterns that is generally blamed for irrational theism is probably the root of Campbell's dismissal of specific claims. There *are* similarities... but similarities are not an identity.

I will offer a nice, specific, example: It matters a lot whether a Christian believes "once saved always saved" or "salvation is an ongoing process". There are *substantial* implications in how one evaluates the world, makes decisions... It *matters*.

So, "same religion", but different enough beliefs to make a big difference.

I, too, have the instinct to say "these are similar, I will define the differences out of existance". I just know better.

Waning Moon Conrad · 12-20-2002, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by catman:
You know you atheist like to point out how we christians overlook things in the bible. But as soon as one of your own overlooks something well--that goes whizzing right passed you. So some new king was born in a cave, huh. Where is he getting this crap at?

You may as well ask where Christian mythology got its crap at.

Christian mythology borrowed a lot of its stories and motifs from other pagan mythologies which have sun-gods born at the winter solstice when days begin to get longer, born miraculously etc etc. Died, spent time in the underworldl, were reborn and in doing so redeemed the earth blah blah etc.

Consult Joseph Campbell or various other sources of mythology.

[ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: Waning Moon Conrad ]

Straight Hate · 12-20-2002, 10:14 PM

One of the things that particularily stands out in my mind with Campbell was his observation about the Genesis god favouring the animal over the plant (in effect, shunning the farming culture which would have been in full effect around that time).

Another was his remark that the Judeo-Christian faith was one of the few religions to hold the woman in 'contempt'. Where it seems most early, 'cosmic' religions saw the woman as a symbol for life and the Earth, Christianity pinned the fall on a woman.

Just thoughts - no particular point that I'm trying to make.

Yellum Notnef · 12-21-2002, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kathall:
One of the things that particularily stands out in my mind with Campbell was his observation about the Genesis god favouring the animal over the plant (in effect, shunning the farming culture which would have been in full effect around that time).

Another was his remark that the Judeo-Christian faith was one of the few religions to hold the woman in 'contempt'. Where it seems most early, 'cosmic' religions saw the woman as a symbol for life and the Earth, Christianity pinned the fall on a woman.

Just thoughts - no particular point that I'm trying to make.

Campbell said that the reason the Judeo-Christian faith holds women in "contempt" is due to them (women) inventing farming in Mesopotamia thus making the male hunters less important. The men didn`t forget this and it worked this grudge into the personality of their god.

Campbells main point was that all the religious mythologies of the world were centered around a hero who did something to save or teach mankind.

Out of everything Campbell ever said about religion my all time favorite was when he referred to Christianity as "misunderstood mythology".
That really burned a lot of asses.

Starboy · 12-21-2002, 07:57 AM

It is also interesting to note that Campbell died an atheist.

12-20-2002, 01:35 PM	#1
Yellum Notnef Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Gone Posts: 4,676	Some wise words from Joseph Campbell I just got a surprise newsletter from the Joseph Campbell foundation. Here`s just a bit from the beginning...... December, 2002 THE MYTHIC DIMENSION The official online newsletter of the Joseph Campbell Foundation The Virgin Birth, The Cave, and The Infant "We are all born as animals and live the life that animals live: We sleep, eat, reproduce, and fight. There is, however, another order of living, which the animals do not know, that of awe before the mystery of being, the mysterium tremendum et fascinans, that can be the root and the branch of the spiritual sense of one's days. That is the birth -- the Virgin Birth -- in the heart of a properly human, spiritual life. "The motif of birth in a cave is also very ancient. This symbol is associated particularly with the winter solstice, when the sun has traveled to its farthest point away from the tilted earth and the light is in the nadir of the abyss... "The cave has always been the scene of initation, where the birth of the light takes place. Here as well is found the whole idea of the cave of the heart, the dark chamber of the heart, where the light of the divine first appears. This image is also associated with the emergence of light in the beginning, out of the abyss of the early chaos, so that one senses the deep resonations of this theme. "We have then the story and image of the birth of this wonderous child in a richly evocative setting. Let us look at other aspects of it. That there was no room in the inn is also an old story. So, too, is that of the infant in exile as the new world is born outside of the province of the old... "What it evokes...is the birth of a new King somewhere else, outside of the sphere of the powers that be, and the ultimate overcoming of these powers by this new King." Excerpted from Thou Art That: Transforming Religious Metaphor By Joseph Campbell Pages 29, 65, and 67. <a href="http://www.jcf.org/about_jcf.php" target="_blank">Joseph Campbell Foundation</a> [ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: Fenton Mulley ]</p>

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12-20-2002, 01:50 PM	#2
Straight Hate Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 4,171	I am perplexed by all that is Joseph Campbell. I've read "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" as well as "The Power of Myth", and enjoyed both to a large degree. However, aside from numerous mentions of him being the 'inspiration' behind Star Wars, I hear very little about the man. Freethinkers seem to have bigger fish to fry, and Campbell does not seem register on the theists' radar. However, as the above article shows, he was a pretty interesting character with, in my opinion, a heck of a lot to say!

12-20-2002, 07:53 PM	#4
catman Banned Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 102	You know you atheist like to point out how we christians overlook things in the bible. But as soon as one of your own overlooks something well--that goes whizzing right passed you. So some new king was born in a cave, huh. Where is he getting this crap at?

12-20-2002, 08:37 PM	#5
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	IMHO, of course: Campbell said a lot of interesting and thought-provoking things, however, I have a tough time believing that all religions are essentially the same thing. IIRC, Campbell believed that since all religions are the same, it doesn't matter what one believes. That's just a little bit tough to swallow.

12-20-2002, 08:40 PM	#6
seebs Contributor Join Date: May 2002 Location: Saint Paul, MN Posts: 24,524	I have read enough about enough religions to see what he's talking about; there are common threads everywhere. The beauty of it is, the same searching-for-patterns that is generally blamed for irrational theism is probably the root of Campbell's dismissal of specific claims. There are similarities... but similarities are not an identity. I will offer a nice, specific, example: It matters a lot whether a Christian believes "once saved always saved" or "salvation is an ongoing process". There are substantial implications in how one evaluates the world, makes decisions... It matters. So, "same religion", but different enough beliefs to make a big difference. I, too, have the instinct to say "these are similar, I will define the differences out of existance". I just know better.

12-20-2002, 10:14 PM	#8
Straight Hate Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 4,171	One of the things that particularily stands out in my mind with Campbell was his observation about the Genesis god favouring the animal over the plant (in effect, shunning the farming culture which would have been in full effect around that time). Another was his remark that the Judeo-Christian faith was one of the few religions to hold the woman in 'contempt'. Where it seems most early, 'cosmic' religions saw the woman as a symbol for life and the Earth, Christianity pinned the fall on a woman. Just thoughts - no particular point that I'm trying to make.

12-21-2002, 07:57 AM	#10
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	It is also interesting to note that Campbell died an atheist.

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