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02-24-2003, 07:40 PM | #1 |
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Acts and Virgil
As those of you who have been following the Acts saga here at Infidels know, we;ve been uncovering more and more classical allusions and constructions in Acts. This latest bit of thinking is from Robbins, whose work is being discussed in another thread.
Here is an exchange on XTALK: ****** BOB: Odyssey and Aeneid provide a ready literary model. But if the trajectory is from Troy to Jerusalem to Rome, then Luke has the problem of explaining how, or why, Paul got to Troy. If the Odyssey/Aeneid parallel is influencing Luke, and if it starts at Troy rather than at Jerusalem, then is there any evidence that Luke fudged Paul's previous travels in order to get him to Troy? I don't necessarily mean by changing his itinerary, but perhaps in the rational offered for Paul's movements at various stages of the journeys from Jerusalem to Troy? VKR: Thanks, Bob. Very interesting response and query. I suppose an initial place to look is Acts 15:40-16:8, isn't it. Paul and Silas go through Syria and Cilicia (15:40-41), then on to Derbe and Lystra (16:1). Then Phrygia and Galatia (16:6). All of this, of course, is on land. This is a lot of territory to cover, and the reader might expect some specific account of some event in a few of the churches, at least. The reader only hears about Paul's having Timothy circumcized (16:3). But it is not elaborated as a specific event. There is only a reference to it. All the narration is "summary narration": "they went from town to town," etc. Now that you mention it, it does look as though Luke is getting Paul by inland route as quickly as he can to, guess where?, Troas (Troy: 16:8). And on the way there, what is the meaning exactly of 16:6, they "went through Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia"? Luke is getting them quickly through these significant regions of territory past Mysia to Troas (16:8). Hans Conzelmann's Acts of the Apostles Hermeneia Commentary begins on Acts 16:6-10 with the statement: "The description of this journey is most remarkable: it is an intentional nonmissionary journey! In reality, Paul had worked in this region a long time.... One senses the gaps in Luke's knowledge about central Asia Minor (with the exception of the region from Pisidian Antioch to Derbe). Since Luke's account is devoid of all specifics regarding stopping places, the itinerary hypothesis can be held only by assuming that Luke must have abridged his source to convey the distinct impression of movement toward the new goal, Europe. In fact, the account creates the impression of being a summary (similar to 18:21b-23)....On the one hand, there are no gaps or breaks which could give conclusive proof that a summarizing process had taken place. NOR CAN ANY MOTIVE BE ADVANCED FOR SUCH EPITOMIZING." (p. 126) (my caps) Perhaps we are finding "a motive" for this brief, non-elaborated inland trip in Acts 16:6-10, and perhaps the abbreviated account in 15:40-16:5 also! Many thanks, Bob. Very suggestive. Vernon Robbins, Emory University ********* But don't worry! I am sure Acts is solid history Vorkosigan |
02-24-2003, 08:52 PM | #2 | |
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02-24-2003, 10:39 PM | #3 | |
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02-24-2003, 10:47 PM | #4 |
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Would you say that none of Acts is history remembered? Or just a very little bit of it?
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02-24-2003, 11:35 PM | #5 |
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Vinnie: name the chapters and verses you think might be historical.
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02-25-2003, 12:05 AM | #6 | |
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02-25-2003, 12:10 AM | #7 |
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Why? Are you going to show why its not historical?
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02-25-2003, 12:17 AM | #8 | |
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Let me try to put this another way. I think there is history "behind" some of Acts. I consider it somewhat similar to the gospels. If there is history it needs to be extrapolated but I am not convinced that one can simply read Acts as a literal history of the church any moire than I am convinced that one could read Mark to get a literal history of Jesus' ministry. Though I think Acts can be compared with some of Paul's information and this might "doubly attest" some items. Stuff like that is what I would hold to. Though I have not officially undertaken a detailed study of Acts so I won't contribute much in here. Vinnie Vinnie |
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02-25-2003, 12:27 AM | #9 | |
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In any case, Robbins appears to have decided that Nomad and Layman are not worth debating.
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02-25-2003, 01:56 AM | #10 |
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Robbins lost the argument and so has dropped taking part. He then whines about not debating (ie not being interested in what is true and what isn't) but instead wanting to learn about new things, by which he means more pointless arm waving.
He then picks up a Macdonaldism that says that Alexandria Troas where Paul stayed was Ancient Troy. While Troas is the region of Troy, the city Paul visited is not the city of Illium built right over ancient Troy as this map shows. Of course, in the weird and wonderful world of lit crit you don't have to have a proper parallel just some vague suggestive idea that allows you to string out more tales and more rubbish. We saw with MacDonald that you can build enormous castles on sand using methods that put the Bible Code crowd to shame. Robbins is more of the same and it is a shame only Layman and Nomad are calling him on it. If a Christian was doing this, Toto would not bother disguise their scorn. Vork can easily state Acts is fiction without compromising his usual clear sightedness by following these non-parrallels he should have realised were bogus ages ago. Yours Bede Bede's Library - faith and reason |
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