Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Perchance · 07-11-2002, 05:56 AM

I would ask a lot of "Why?" questions (the kind that two-year-olds ask their parents and which frequently go unanswered because the parents don't know the answer) in my prayers. And since this would be an omniscient being, I would be asking not just for the obvious answers, but for the philosophical truths behind them.

"Why do innocent animals get hit by cars?"

"Why did you make me have brown eyes?"

"Why do so many people have poor grammar skills?"

"How can I make my sister stop annoying me?" (All right, so the last one wasn't a 'why' question, but I think it's an answer I won't get from any human).

When he answered those, then I would get into arguments with him, along the lines of, "How can I hate fanatics? If I do that, then I become a fanatic too."

Eventually, God would explode from constantly answering all my questions, and the world could go back to normal

.

-Perchance.

Alonzo Fyfe · 07-11-2002, 06:11 AM

I would not worship him.

Because there is no intrinsic property whereby one being has a natural duty to obey another, and the other has a natural right to be obeyed.

I would view God the same way that I would view a representative of an alien race, whose power and wisdom exceeded my own. Neither their advanced power nor their advanced wisdom implies that I ought to become their willing slave and devote my time and effort to their glory.

(Actually, I have written a whole set of novels and short stories on this topic -- about a planet where gods are real, and most of the population believes that they should worship these gods. But a small faction holds that the gods are their moral equals -- they will barter, trade, and converse with the gods as equals. Some of the gods demand obedience, others accept this idea that gods and mortals are moral equals. Those that demand obedience are seen as evil within the story, those that accept the moral equality of the mortals work with them to combat this evil.

Note: I have never attempted to publish these stories; I do not expect they would have much of a market. But I love writing, and I have a few friends who find them entertaining.)

[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: Alonzo Fyfe ]

Koyaanisqatsi · 07-11-2002, 07:32 AM

Why don't you post one here (i.e., on the SecWeb), Alonzo? Give it a go!

Jamie_L · 07-11-2002, 09:26 AM

Considering all the contradictions in the bible(s), the contrast between all the OT nastiness and the "turn the other cheek" NT, and all the thousands of Christian sects, I'd be hard pressed to TRUST this god. Unless I got some direct audiences with the guy, or some other form of information that alleviated all my concerns, I wouldn't feel confident that worship and perfect behavior would be worthwhile. The sneaky bastard might send me to hell anyway, just for fun.

If I got all the information I needed to make me feel confident that worship would be beneficial to me and the rest of the world, then sure, yeah. But if this is the guy who's plan is so damn complex that I can never comprehend it, how do I know that sending me to hell in spite of my worship isn't part of the plan?

Jamie

GeoTheo · 07-11-2002, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Heading to Hell:
I couldn't worship anything that let Hitler kill 6 million people.

So, basically you are saying you would not worship anything that allows humans to have free will. But actually you would because, not having a free will of your own you would have no choice.

Jamie_L · 07-11-2002, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo:
So, basically you are saying you would not worship anything that allows humans to have free will.

Why do divine intervention and free will have to be mutually exclusive?

By this arguement, in order for humans to have free will, God must have no free will. I.E. even if God wanted Hitler to not kill 6 million people, God is forced to sit on his hands because he is a slave to the idea of human free will. If God cares more about free will than human suffering, why worship him? If he cares more about free will than us, why shouldn't we all just do what ever we want and choose to not worship him. Wouldn't that be the true way to show God how much we value all this free will he give us?

Jamie

Philosoft · 07-11-2002, 10:22 AM

Even if God exists, it does not automatically solve things like the Euthyphro Dilemma. There are many conundrums and contradictions that are not immediately solved by confirmation of God's existence. God would still have many things to answer for before I kneel.

GeoTheo · 07-11-2002, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamie_L:


why shouldn't we all just do what ever we want and choose to not worship him.

Jamie

That's pretty much the way things pan out actually.

Bible Humper · 07-13-2002, 05:39 AM

Wow, I guess I'm more cowardly than the average heathen.

I would not be able to convince myself that sizzling in a pool of molten brimstone for all time, rather than going to a magical paradise, is worth flipping Yahweh the bird for being a fiend.

I would live my life on my knees like a proper christian if Yahweh was real, you better believe it.

Answerer · 07-13-2002, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo:

That's pretty much the way things pan out actually.

Geo, just tell us how much you know about that God of yours.

07-11-2002, 06:11 AM	#22
Alonzo Fyfe Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: 920B Milo Circle Lafayette, CO Posts: 3,515	I would not worship him. Because there is no intrinsic property whereby one being has a natural duty to obey another, and the other has a natural right to be obeyed. I would view God the same way that I would view a representative of an alien race, whose power and wisdom exceeded my own. Neither their advanced power nor their advanced wisdom implies that I ought to become their willing slave and devote my time and effort to their glory. (Actually, I have written a whole set of novels and short stories on this topic -- about a planet where gods are real, and most of the population believes that they should worship these gods. But a small faction holds that the gods are their moral equals -- they will barter, trade, and converse with the gods as equals. Some of the gods demand obedience, others accept this idea that gods and mortals are moral equals. Those that demand obedience are seen as evil within the story, those that accept the moral equality of the mortals work with them to combat this evil. Note: I have never attempted to publish these stories; I do not expect they would have much of a market. But I love writing, and I have a few friends who find them entertaining.) [ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: Alonzo Fyfe ]</p>

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07-11-2002, 05:56 AM	#21
Perchance Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,059	I would ask a lot of "Why?" questions (the kind that two-year-olds ask their parents and which frequently go unanswered because the parents don't know the answer) in my prayers. And since this would be an omniscient being, I would be asking not just for the obvious answers, but for the philosophical truths behind them. "Why do innocent animals get hit by cars?" "Why did you make me have brown eyes?" "Why do so many people have poor grammar skills?" "How can I make my sister stop annoying me?" (All right, so the last one wasn't a 'why' question, but I think it's an answer I won't get from any human). When he answered those, then I would get into arguments with him, along the lines of, "How can I hate fanatics? If I do that, then I become a fanatic too." Eventually, God would explode from constantly answering all my questions, and the world could go back to normal . -Perchance.

07-11-2002, 07:32 AM	#23
Koyaanisqatsi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Yes, I have dyslexia. Sue me. Posts: 6,508	Why don't you post one here (i.e., on the SecWeb), Alonzo? Give it a go!

07-11-2002, 09:26 AM	#24
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	Considering all the contradictions in the bible(s), the contrast between all the OT nastiness and the "turn the other cheek" NT, and all the thousands of Christian sects, I'd be hard pressed to TRUST this god. Unless I got some direct audiences with the guy, or some other form of information that alleviated all my concerns, I wouldn't feel confident that worship and perfect behavior would be worthwhile. The sneaky bastard might send me to hell anyway, just for fun. If I got all the information I needed to make me feel confident that worship would be beneficial to me and the rest of the world, then sure, yeah. But if this is the guy who's plan is so damn complex that I can never comprehend it, how do I know that sending me to hell in spite of my worship isn't part of the plan? Jamie

07-11-2002, 10:22 AM	#27
Philosoft Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Southeast of disorder Posts: 6,829	Even if God exists, it does not automatically solve things like the Euthyphro Dilemma. There are many conundrums and contradictions that are not immediately solved by confirmation of God's existence. God would still have many things to answer for before I kneel.

07-13-2002, 05:39 AM	#29
Bible Humper Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,125	Wow, I guess I'm more cowardly than the average heathen. I would not be able to convince myself that sizzling in a pool of molten brimstone for all time, rather than going to a magical paradise, is worth flipping Yahweh the bird for being a fiend. I would live my life on my knees like a proper christian if Yahweh was real, you better believe it.

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