Thanatos

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DO NOT PLAGIARIZE

-RvFvS

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: RufusAtticus ]</p>

Undercurrent

Mutation and natural selection. Just like the remarkable abilities of other creatures.

m.

Mageth

Here's the first and last sentences of the post:

Migrating birds perform amazing feats of navigation which are still not fully understood by scientists....How does evolution explain the remarkable abilities of birds?

Do you notice anything wrong here? (hint: "still not fully understood.")

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

Thanatos

Your answer does not explain a thing. How can mutation and natural selection explain innate characteristics?

Furthermore, it has not been shown experimentally that mutation and natural selection can produce new structures or organs. Limited changes have been observed in all species, but that does not prove that these species can evolve in millions of years into entirely different kinds of creatures.

Typhon

Thanatos,

Your argument is a rather strange one.

My response would be, so what? Many species possess traits, behavior, or elements of their morphology that are not "fully understood by scientists."

What IS fully understood by scientists however, is that these traits, which even your examples clearly show to be inherited, not taught, are the product of evolution.

Have you ever heard of these things called genes? Amazing little packets of information. They contain a lot more complex information than just a pigeon's ability to migrate across large distances.

Quite nicely. Those early migratory birds who DID NOT pass on this information to their progeny, did not survive. Birds which migrate (or for that matter any species that has inherited abilities that allow it to travel over long distances with great accuracy) are no more amazing or unusual than many living organisms. Their traits certainly are not held to be anything but the process of natural selection and evolution.

How do you think they do it? Magic? A map from the local petrol station? God whispers in every swallow's ear on its way to Capistrano? If so, then you are unfortunately, far, far behind the rest of the world in terms of scientific understanding.

I am at a loss to understand why you think the natural occurrence of homing instincts in migratory bird species (who depend on this in order to cross vast distances to feed, mate, and produce their young) are anything but the product of natural selection. You seem to be offering up credible evidence FOR evolution rather than against. Certainly, no reputable members of either avian science or entomology, find these traits as anything that is out of line with the accepted biological facts of evolution.

Here's a question for you.

My grandfather died before I was born. I look uncannily like my maternal grandfather. Why do I look like my grandfather? Out of all the possible combinations of human features, how did I end up with these exact ones? I am also very good at art, and always have been, even as a little tyke. Color and spatial arrangement is something I appear to be inherently skilled at, just like my mother, who is also a talented artist, and was even as a child. So, how did all this knowledge and ability get packed into my mother's tiny egg that eventually became me?

.T.

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: Typhon ]</p>

gravitybow

Tsk, tsk. Didn't your mommy tell you not <a href="http://www.angelfire.com/ks/crl/birds.html" target="_blank">plagiarize</a> other people's work? Even stole the title!

Since you have put exactly zero thought into your post, why should we dignify it with a researched response? Or are you also planning to cut and paste "Your answer does not explain a thing" into all your responses?

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: gravitybow ]</p>

Thanatos

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gravitybow:
[QB]Tsk, tsk. Didn't your mommy tell you not <a href="http://www.angelfire.com/ks/crl/birds.html" target="_blank">plagiarize</a> other people's work? Even stole the title!

You gots me, gravitbow. I'm a terrible, terrible person. I don't have a unique bone in my body.

As for Typhon, your argument is rather strange as well. The inheritance of your grandfather's physical characteristics is not the same as the bird's innate ability to fly somewhere they've never been.

BLoggins02

Thanatos:

Thank you for cutting and pasting from the "Handy Dandy Evolution Rebuffer".

Here's a hint: you show no understanding of evolution. Because you didn't even bother to learn about the basics of evolution from an unbiased scientific source before you began to start plagiarizing and pontificating (but pretty much just plagiarizing), you obviously don't care about whether it's true or not. I mean, it has to be false because hey, if it were true, that would feel really bad.

Excellent scholarly work. Do you apply the same reasoning and distrust in science for quantum mechanics? No, probably not, because it doesn't threaten your religious ideals.

Please absorb into skull: A theory is not false simply because it disproves your particular 4000 year old Babylonian originated tribal creation myth! Please give human beings more credit, I mean I know we're worthless in the eyes of the LAWD and everything, but....

This post is academically dishonest, intellectually dishonest, and doesn't even show a thread of original thought. I vote it be moved to RR&P, QoS is probably pretty hungry right now.

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: BLoggins02 ]</p>

gravitybow

I second the motion. It started dishonestly and now it should end.

Typhon

No it is not. If you had bothered to actually read my post, or knew the first thing about evolutionary biology, you'd see that they are (no pun intended), related.

You did not, by the way, answer ANY of my questions.

I'll let you take this little quiz, and see how you do.

1. Why do I look like my grandfather?

A. Coincidence
B. God really thought my grandfather was a handsome man
C. Inherited traits

2. If I have inherited traits, where did those traits come from?

A. Wishful thinking
B. The angels stuffed them in my heart
C. My genes

3. Do migratory birds pass on their traits?

A. Dunno
B. No, cherubs teach them in heaven
C. Yes

4. Do some traits offer an advantage over others?

A. No
B. What does the Bible say
C. Yes

In the meanwhile, lets look at another example. I have an inherited trait, passed down to me through my genes, which lets me fly faster than you, or fly farther than you, or…navigate long distances better than you. We both set out on a long journey, because the season is changing and food is now growing scarce where we are and the cold is coming. If we stay, we'll perish. No eggs will be laid/fertilized by either you or me in the coming spring, and no new babies will hatch, carrying our inherited genes. So we fly south for the winter, crossing a vast distance. Predators try to catch us. Storms buffet us. Landmarks are often hard to see, and we're young, and inexperienced with migration. Our flock gets separated. Even those who stay with the flocks, run grave risks. The odds are stacked hugely against our survival. We will be hard pressed, either one, to make it alive to our winter home.

Now, who is MORE likely to get to the winter feeding grounds, and thus survive long enough to possibly mate and pass down their genes, you or me?

And, if this occurs over several years, how many more of my offspring and my brothers and sisters's offspring (whose own parents, like mine, passed down these traits), will be likely present in our flock than yours and your siblings (none of which inherited the useful gene) in the seasons to come? Multiply this over the millions of years that life has flourished and spread on the planet, and you get some very skilled flyers.

.T.

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: Typhon ]</p>