Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Daydreamer · 05-31-2002, 05:46 PM

In his book, Asimov on Astronomy [1], the late, great Isaac Asimov gives a rather interesting explanation for the Noachian Flood, onto which I expanded and modified:

According to legend, where did Noah land after the flood? Simple: Mount Ararat (Gen 8:4) [2], located in Eastern Turkey, near its boarders with Iran and Armenia [3]. The funny thing about it, however, is its location in respect to the Mediterranean Sea - it lies far to the north, beyond a large expanse of hills, but right on the southern edge of the range of taller mountains. Almost as if the Great Flood had pushed northeast from the Mediterranean, sweeping over the hills, but crashing into the larger mountains. This is backed up by scripture no less - Genesis 7:11 [4] speaks of 'fountains of the great deep'.

What, however, could have caused such a disaster? Asimov, based on records of city-buster sized (million-ton) meteors in our century (twice: in Siberia in 1908, and again farther east in 1967) and similar unattributed phenomena from previous centuries, calculates we get hit with such meteors once every fifty years. Multiplied by the % of land taken up for cities and such, and the odds are rather small we would have seen a direct hit in our history - about 1 in every 100,000 years. However, he correctly recognizes that Meteors have huge areas of effect due to the force they wield, and calculated that the odds of a major civilization feeling and recording the effects of such a catastrophe to be ten times higher - about 1 in every 10,000 years. Low enough so that we would expect about a 1/2 to 3/5 chance of finding such a history. Thus he theorizes a meteor strike in the caused the Noachian Flood, sending a tidal wave across the Mesopotamian Delta and up over the lowlands of Greece [1].

I, however, disagree with Asimov on two accounts: first, while he placed the meteor strike in the Persian Gulf, as I mentioned above I think the location of Mount Ararat suggests the Flood began in the Mediterranean. Second, I think there is a much more reasonable explanation to be had for the cause of the flood than a meteor strike.

This flood is backed up by other mythologies - but only in the area. Both tablet XI of the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh (which predates even the earliest copies of the Old Testament) [5] and to a lesser extent Hercules' Trial with the Aegean Stables [6] report something similar - but both are in the same Mesopotamian/Hellenistic area. The myth of Hercules poses a bit of a problem for Asimov�s theory, as does the flooding of the Black and Caspian Sea Scott mentioned [7], because they are to far removed physically from the Persian Gulf. The Mediterranean, however, is much closer to those areas, and also provides a much larger area in which whatever catastrophic force caused the flood could have originated from.

Now for the cause - what other forces could have created a wave of such magnitude? This question puzzled me for a moment, until I remembered a news story from a few years ago about Californian earthquakes causing tidal waves in Alaska, Hawaii, and on the eastern seacoast of Russia. In a burst of inspiration I searched the �net for a map of plate tectonics, and found more than I could have hoped for. Not only is the Mediterranean right on the border between the African and Eurasian plates, but there is a triple point between those two and the Arabian plate just a few miles of the shore of Israel � it�s a veritable seismic hotbed [8]!

These reasons, combined with the fact that I like saving my �Meteor Card� for explaining the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, makes a seaquake in the Mediterranean around the year 3000 BC the most rational explanation for the Noachian flood.

[1] Check it out at a library - I recommend it highly
[2] <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/8.html#4" target="_blank">http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/8.html#4</a>
[3] <a href="http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/middleeast_ref01.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/middleeast_ref01.jpg</a>
[4] <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/7.html#11" target="_blank">http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/7.html#11</a>
[5] <a href="http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/GILG.HTM" target="_blank">http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/GILG.HTM</a>
[6] <a href="http://home.swipnet.se/~w-54567/hera/05.htm" target="_blank">http://home.swipnet.se/~w-54567/hera/05.htm</a>
[7] <a href="http://207.36.64.70/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000001.html" target="_blank">http://207.36.64.70/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000001.html</a>
[8] <a href="http://geology.er.usgs.gov/eastern/plates.html" target="_blank">http://geology.er.usgs.gov/eastern/plates.html</a>

Jayhawker Soule · 06-01-2002, 04:55 AM

ok -- btw, if we posit some uniquely catastophic flood around 3000 BCE, how do we account for the achievemnets and the continuity of Uruk?

[ June 01, 2002: Message edited by: ReasonableDoubt ]</p>

Marduk · 06-01-2002, 06:37 AM

I have more confidense in the theory that the flood story originated with the people who lived in the BlacK Sea region, as the last ice age drew to a close around 7000 years ago sea levels rose and the Mediterrania Sea overflowed into the Black Sea, which was a freshwater lake at the time, pouring over the strait of Brospours like Niagra Falls. Look up the 'Black Sea Project'. Or catch the show on TV called something like 'Looking for Noahs Flood'.

Jayhawker Soule · 06-01-2002, 07:33 AM

< sorry >

[ June 01, 2002: Message edited by: ReasonableDoubt ]</p>

Jayhawker Soule · 06-01-2002, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt:
<strong>Where's the line between "rational explanation" and fun speculation?

Folks didn't do very well unless they were near a source of fresh water. Fresh water sources flood occasionally - sometimes seriously and sometimes disasterously.

With or without a Mediterranean flooding the Black Sea, there should have been more than enough nature-induced catastrophies to allow primitive people to conflate a Flood Myth. This seems much more reasonable to me than does the idea of a circa 5600 BCE event finding itself formally mythologized some 3000 years later.

Perhaps sometimes a Flood is just a flood ...

</strong>

RyanS2 · 06-01-2002, 03:22 PM

I'm with Marduck on this one, several civilizations, (e.g. Egypt, India, China), show no signs of having a major flood which would have surely left huge signs of having happened, and are not part of their mythology. However, in areas near the place where he mentioned, there is signs of an acute rise in water, and they have the accompanying flood story to give the aetiological explanation for it.

It is also possible that it is just part of your Mythic Archetype, just like the World being destroyed by fire is your standard Mythic Archetype in apocolyptic traditions, even in ones composed w/o other sources or references.

Daydreamer · 06-02-2002, 01:41 AM

I think then that I FUBARed the date - but does anyone find any flaws in the rest of my logic?

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05-31-2002, 05:46 PM	#1
Daydreamer Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Diego Posts: 221	Asimov on the Flood In his book, Asimov on Astronomy [1], the late, great Isaac Asimov gives a rather interesting explanation for the Noachian Flood, onto which I expanded and modified: According to legend, where did Noah land after the flood? Simple: Mount Ararat (Gen 8:4) [2], located in Eastern Turkey, near its boarders with Iran and Armenia [3]. The funny thing about it, however, is its location in respect to the Mediterranean Sea - it lies far to the north, beyond a large expanse of hills, but right on the southern edge of the range of taller mountains. Almost as if the Great Flood had pushed northeast from the Mediterranean, sweeping over the hills, but crashing into the larger mountains. This is backed up by scripture no less - Genesis 7:11 [4] speaks of 'fountains of the great deep'. What, however, could have caused such a disaster? Asimov, based on records of city-buster sized (million-ton) meteors in our century (twice: in Siberia in 1908, and again farther east in 1967) and similar unattributed phenomena from previous centuries, calculates we get hit with such meteors once every fifty years. Multiplied by the % of land taken up for cities and such, and the odds are rather small we would have seen a direct hit in our history - about 1 in every 100,000 years. However, he correctly recognizes that Meteors have huge areas of effect due to the force they wield, and calculated that the odds of a major civilization feeling and recording the effects of such a catastrophe to be ten times higher - about 1 in every 10,000 years. Low enough so that we would expect about a 1/2 to 3/5 chance of finding such a history. Thus he theorizes a meteor strike in the caused the Noachian Flood, sending a tidal wave across the Mesopotamian Delta and up over the lowlands of Greece [1]. I, however, disagree with Asimov on two accounts: first, while he placed the meteor strike in the Persian Gulf, as I mentioned above I think the location of Mount Ararat suggests the Flood began in the Mediterranean. Second, I think there is a much more reasonable explanation to be had for the cause of the flood than a meteor strike. This flood is backed up by other mythologies - but only in the area. Both tablet XI of the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh (which predates even the earliest copies of the Old Testament) [5] and to a lesser extent Hercules' Trial with the Aegean Stables [6] report something similar - but both are in the same Mesopotamian/Hellenistic area. The myth of Hercules poses a bit of a problem for Asimov�s theory, as does the flooding of the Black and Caspian Sea Scott mentioned [7], because they are to far removed physically from the Persian Gulf. The Mediterranean, however, is much closer to those areas, and also provides a much larger area in which whatever catastrophic force caused the flood could have originated from. Now for the cause - what other forces could have created a wave of such magnitude? This question puzzled me for a moment, until I remembered a news story from a few years ago about Californian earthquakes causing tidal waves in Alaska, Hawaii, and on the eastern seacoast of Russia. In a burst of inspiration I searched the �net for a map of plate tectonics, and found more than I could have hoped for. Not only is the Mediterranean right on the border between the African and Eurasian plates, but there is a triple point between those two and the Arabian plate just a few miles of the shore of Israel � it�s a veritable seismic hotbed [8]! These reasons, combined with the fact that I like saving my �Meteor Card� for explaining the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, makes a seaquake in the Mediterranean around the year 3000 BC the most rational explanation for the Noachian flood. [1] Check it out at a library - I recommend it highly [2] <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/8.html#4" target="_blank">http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/8.html#4</a> [3] <a href="http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/middleeast_ref01.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/middleeast_ref01.jpg</a> [4] <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/7.html#11" target="_blank">http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/7.html#11</a> [5] <a href="http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/GILG.HTM" target="_blank">http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/GILG.HTM</a> [6] <a href="http://home.swipnet.se/~w-54567/hera/05.htm" target="_blank">http://home.swipnet.se/~w-54567/hera/05.htm</a> [7] <a href="http://207.36.64.70/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000001.html" target="_blank">http://207.36.64.70/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000001.html</a> [8] <a href="http://geology.er.usgs.gov/eastern/plates.html" target="_blank">http://geology.er.usgs.gov/eastern/plates.html</a>

06-01-2002, 04:55 AM	#2
Jayhawker Soule Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,777	ok -- btw, if we posit some uniquely catastophic flood around 3000 BCE, how do we account for the achievemnets and the continuity of Uruk? [ June 01, 2002: Message edited by: ReasonableDoubt ]</p>

06-01-2002, 06:37 AM	#3
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	I have more confidense in the theory that the flood story originated with the people who lived in the BlacK Sea region, as the last ice age drew to a close around 7000 years ago sea levels rose and the Mediterrania Sea overflowed into the Black Sea, which was a freshwater lake at the time, pouring over the strait of Brospours like Niagra Falls. Look up the 'Black Sea Project'. Or catch the show on TV called something like 'Looking for Noahs Flood'.

06-01-2002, 07:33 AM	#4
Jayhawker Soule Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,777	< sorry > [ June 01, 2002: Message edited by: ReasonableDoubt ]</p>

06-01-2002, 03:22 PM	#6
RyanS2 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Louisiana Posts: 216	I'm with Marduck on this one, several civilizations, (e.g. Egypt, India, China), show no signs of having a major flood which would have surely left huge signs of having happened, and are not part of their mythology. However, in areas near the place where he mentioned, there is signs of an acute rise in water, and they have the accompanying flood story to give the aetiological explanation for it. It is also possible that it is just part of your Mythic Archetype, just like the World being destroyed by fire is your standard Mythic Archetype in apocolyptic traditions, even in ones composed w/o other sources or references.

06-02-2002, 01:41 AM	#7
Daydreamer Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Diego Posts: 221	I think then that I FUBARed the date - but does anyone find any flaws in the rest of my logic?

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