philechat

Read all the 100 prophecies.

1) Why are there something like 10 "different" prophecies saying basically the same thing ?(rebuilt of Israel. Restoration of Temple of Jerusalem. Return of Jews to Israel) These are basically self-fulfilled prophecies, since, as I had said before, the Jews had been the most persistent in retaining their own culture to the exclusion of others...and would quickly perform such actions when opportunities arise (which...lasted 2000 years)

2) There are two arguments against the ancient prophecies:

1.The Jesus stories are most likely invented by the writers of the NT, who were Jews and studied in detail the OT and its traditions.

2. The older prophecies were often "written after the event" while dating back to represent a fulfillment of older prophecies. It is a standard trick of the priest class. The Book of Danial, for example, are filled with examples of back-dating.

3) Persecution of Jews: In ancient times many cultures had been mistreated and persecuted, and Jews were not "singled out" in any special ways. The only reason the Jews were persecuted for the longest of time was because of Christianity, which treated the Jews as killers of Christ.

[ July 29, 2002: Message edited by: philechat ]</p>

Vorkosigan

ps Volks..i dont have a dog in this fight, i have no idea which "10" listed on that website are the best.

(1) There's no fight here. Outside of a few wacko Christians, nobody believes the current Israeli state fulfills the OT prophecies.

(2) If you didn't have a dog here, why did you start this thread.

(3) Since no prophecies are more interesting than any other, why not just pick ten at random? Pick the ten most convincing to you.


I only focused on the restoration prophecis 'cuz they are so obviously fulfilled.

That's because beginning in the 19th century, Jews and Christians worked to establish Israel. Note that several groups of Rabbis, including the German Rabbis Association in the 19th century, opposed Zionism as unbiblical and stated that Israel did not fulfill the prophecies. Since there is no Davidic ruler and Israel is a secular democracy and not a religious monarchy, it is clear the prophecies have not been fulfilled.


(i probably should mention that my current area of research involves the application of Game theory to historical scenarios and mathematical odds of different outcomes)not that it is really relevant....that's how i stumbled into McDowell and Reisler and Jeffrey and Still and Lowder etc etc....

"your current area of research" is pure bullshit. I doubt you are doing this as part of any recognized research effort by any credible research entity. Can you give more details?

for instance..the return of the Ethiopian Jews to Israel...what are the odds of that? its interesting isnt it?

Very high, since (a) Israel made it known it would accept any jew from anywhere (b) Israel has a better economy than Ethiopia (c) jews from all over the world -- India, Morroco, and other countries -- returned to Israel (d) the Israeli government organized an airlift to get them (and Yemeni and Iranian jews) out of Ethiopia (e) It was the policy of the government to encourage in-migration to provide warm bodies for Israel's factories and armies.

Toto

If both Christians and Jews worked (not necessarily conspired, which would imply a common purpose) to restore a state of Israel, their "fulfillment" does not benefit either one, because the prophecy is by definition one that was self-fulfilled. But you keep acting as if the fulfillment of an OT prophecy somehow proves Christianity. WHY? It seems to me that the fulfillment of an OT prophecy redounds to the Jews, not the Christians.

But other "prophecies" would be found in the Bible, proving that the Jews were once again unworthy. Why is it so hard for you to understand this?

Besides, there would still have been Jews looking for a homeland. They might have tried again.

Military details will not militate in favor of the issue of whether the prophecy was self-fulfilling. We know that the prophecy was self-fulfilling, because the know the reasoning of the British officials who promised the land to the Zionists, and of the Zionists who claimed the land. They had read the Bible, and they were going to make it happen. What more evidence do you need?

Are you trying to say that there is evidence of supernatural intervention in that war? Merely prevailing over the odds is not proof of anything, except that the people setting the odds did not know enough. In any case, the Zionists did not gain all of the Biblical territory of the former Israel. Was that prophesied in the Bible? No it wasn't. Is there any prophecy in the Bible that is really surprizing? Can you read about America in the Bible? No. Automobiles? No. The internet? No. Those are prophecies that would mean something.

I originally asked:

You have not understood this, so let me try to explain slowly. Read every point.

1. Christians claim that the fulfilled prophecies prove that the Bible is the word of God, because only a supernatural being could have foretold the future.

2. Skeptics charge that the prophecies are so vague that this is not a valid test (they were not specific, not limited by time, etc.), that some of the prophecies are trivial, that some of them have been self-fulfilling.

3. How are you going to test this? The same way you would test an astrologer or a fortune teller. The best way is to take the Bible and look for a specific prophecy, then see if it happens. This avoids the common phenomenon of the astrologer who makes some vague prediction, then waits for something to happen and claims to have predicted it.

In fact, people have done this. They have read their Bible, and predicted the end of the world. They have done this consistently and have been wrong so often that there is no credibility left in the idea that there are prophecies in the Bible.

In 1999, Gary North predicted that western civilization would fall due to the Y2K computer bug, and he was so sure of this he bought some remote property and learned survival skills so he could wait out the apolcalypse. On January 1, 2000, he had egg on his face. That has been the fate of everyone who tried to read the future in the Bible.

Throwing Pascal's wager into it just confuses things. The question is whether Bible prophecy is evidence of God. The answer is No.

lcb

it took awhile to get back because i was busy and i also needed to go find a christian to ask them some theological questions because some of you asked me some (and i dont know 'nothin about theology)...so
1.as i understand it, the basic(greatly truncated christian paradigm):Mankind given free will by God so could love by choice and not be trained poodle, mankind when given enough time became progressively wicked,God has high morality requiremment-non negotiable, so either had to destroy man or go another way, allowed substitutional atonement-God's son Jesus Christ was sent to die, be resurrected...etc, God chose the jews because they were the trailer trash of that time, he had to have a flesh and blood tribe of people to use as his compass/time piece/conduit for his law and prophecies and his son Jesus, herod tries to destroy Jesus (archetype of anti-christ)..
cont..fails, Romans destroy temple, sow salt in fields, scatter jews in diaspora,...many archetypes of anti-christ come....islamic jihad, inquisitions, pogroms,then HItler and holocaust(holocaust means to "purify by fire") this purification removes the blood curse on the land (from crucifixion of an innocent man-Jesus) and allows the jews to return to Israel....they did in '48 then got the temple mount back in '67, next is the return of jews (those who are obedient and want to come) from America and then the rebuilding of the last temple then the resumption of the temple worship and sacrifice under the mosaic law(law of moses) then the anti-christ and false prophet and the great tribulation..etc and then Jesus Christ returns to defeat Satan and will reign as KIng in the temple(Jesus is from the line of KIng David)...

sooo, that explains why jewish and christian prophecies dovetail and why the restoration prophecies are also messianic (jesus) prophecies too.That's why christians support the Temple Mount Faithful organization which is now training priests and crafting the ancient implements of temple worship to prepare for the renewed temple worship) and Wings of Eagles ( a christian and jewish org. which continues to fly hundreds of thousands of jews from the diasporah back to Israel... part 2 to follow

Kosh

Am I the only one who gets visions of a "Speed Racer" script when I read lcb's posts?

lcb

part 2...so fulfillment of the restoration prophecies is vital to fulfillment of Christian prophecies as well.

2.every schoolboy/girl knows that assasination of archduke ferdinand caused WW1...WW1 led to Hitler and Hitler ordered the holocaust, the holocaust was so horrific that it finally broke down the horrendous and continuing anti-semitism and anti-zionism still prevalent in britain, france, U.S. etc and led to support for the jewish state in israel..but the arab armies (well equipped with german, french, and even British planes and tanks and artillery) attacked the fledgling jewish state and tried to annihilate them. The jews with only a handful of tanks and a handful of artillery pieces and dropping homemade bombs out of light aircraft fought off arab attackers in raging battles one of which involved odds of 75:1, and several others with odds of 50:1, etc...the order of battle and after action reports (many which were done by independent foreign observers) report "miraculous" events such as sudden changes in wind/weather/fire which saved cut off jewish units and defeated much larger arab forces in what evened seasoned dispassionate military historians call "incredible and aberrational military results"..... this is why I advised studying these documented after action reports (which you refused to do--which says to me that you are afraid of what is contained in them...)
3.the forensicdebater in me says that Hitler and the arab armies make the issue of self-fulfilling prophecies unlikely.That's the way i see it.

4.the prophecies that say "jerusalem will become a stumbling block to all the nations of the world" and jerusalem will become a cup of trembling to the world could possibly be self-fulfilling but only if everyone else plays along with bible prophecy. why is the U.S. and Iraq and Iran and Syria and,etc willing to go to war, even WWIII over Israel? From a secular point of view, the dome of the rock and the temple mount are fairly worthless pieces of real estate. But if jewish revolutionaries or islamic terrorists blow up that dome of the rock there will be WWIII. Armageddon, and suicidal war over worthless ground doesn't make any sense.and it cant be oil-no oil there. The west can defend the oil fields without troubling itself with Israel, so can the arabs, the russians and the chinese by ther way.

4. as to VOrk..i am surprised that as an intellectual you are so luddite when it comes to game theory, and also the ad hominem from you-perhaps you could tell all of us what YOUR area of brilliant research is and how it will enlighten mankind since my research is-as you say "pure bullshit"..people who live in academic glass houses shouldn't throw stones...and shhh(dont tell the folks in operations research that game theory cant be applied to historical military scenarios!!!-thatswhat many of them are doing as we speak full time)so how about you let me spend my research stipend how i see fit and you spend yours as you see fit..okay?

5.finally, as to Paschals' wager "plus"-Paschal's wager "plus" in one analysis of game theory is a risk averse Lorenz progression-the more information which proves or "tends to prove" the debate in one direction militates in favor of the risk averse option to that extent or degree(oblivion on one pole and God of the Hebrews/Christians on the other pole)(if you want other deities you have to prove them)

6. the christians tell me that God isnt interestd in prophecies that dont have anyhting to do with his paradigm and that Gods prophets are Hebrews. They tell me that the Bible specifically says that no human will know the day or hour of Jesus Christ's return and that it is unbiblical to try to say when.Hebrew/paradigm:building of the third temple, battle of armageddon,appearance of anti-christ,armies surrounding jerusalem(a paralell) prophecy that is repeated throughout history and will be again,etc....Gary North-not a prophet,wingnuts who set a date-not prophets, etc

7.How to test? if/ or /as the progression occurs or is consistent with the progression the risk averse approach gives greater and greater heed to the data which proves or tends to prove a given direction.The christians say "all you need is a Bible in one hand and a newspaper in the other" as events concerning Israel and Jerusalem unfold.Pachals' wager of course is not a scientific test, it is a risk averse strategy of avoiding the worse case scenario.lcb doesnt have a dog in this fight-yet, but lcb will watch the unfolding of events in Israel and Jerusalem very very closely and if this progression continues will probably hedge his bets on the side of theism and Hebrew/Christian theism at that.

Tristan Scott

no.

Tristan Scott

Of course we could be the only ones reading them.

CX

Dammit Kosh! Now when I read lcb's posts I hear Speed's voice and manner of speaking in my head!

Kosh

Ah, the arrogance of youth.

[Kosh makes a bowl of popcorn and sits back to enjoy the show]