Freethought & Rationalism Archive

David M. Payne · 01-21-2003, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amergin
Galan:

"I don't know if God is a mass murderer, or even if there is a God, but I think one can very safely say that the "God of Abraham," as described by his very own followers, is a mass murderer."

Excellent observation that summarized this issue. God is the greatest mass murderer, being accused by his own believers/worshippers. Judaeo-Islamic-Christians are God's most devastating accusers. We agnostics and our Atheist mates can't come close.

Amergin

Spot on observation Amergin and Galan.

David

"God and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still sucks them in today, so free your mind, and your body will follow!"

Galan · 01-22-2003, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amergin

Excellent observation that summarised this issue. God is the greatest mass murderer, being accused by his own believers/worshippers. Judaeo-Islamic-Christians are God's most devastating accusers. We agnostics and our Atheist mates can't come close.

Amergin

And, in all fairness we should probably also include (in the "can't come close" category) those theistic religions with views that are morally and rationally more consistent with the ideal of "God" -- and have thereby avoided worship of a jealous, petty and murderous being, like the one we see in the Judeo-Christian Bible.

That's my two cents anyway... Thanks Amergin! (you too DP

)

FarSeeker · 01-26-2003, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by David M. Payne

Quote:

FS said the usual crap. Read what he says, read what other posters have said on this thread and draw your own conclusions folks.

FS:Insults, "the mark of those who have failed in the use of reason to convince their opponents of the correctness of their opinions. To accuse me of being like you, a follower and supporter of authoritarian dogmatic beliefs is a lie. Period."

Quote:

And you have yet to show us that your God even exists, which is the real point of this thread, and this site for that matter. To say that the bible is correct on Noah and the great flood, and yet there were no children alive at the time is absurd, as are your other arguments here FS. The Abrahamic religions are dependent upon the existence of their God, the ultimate authority, for their existence. In belief, action and dogma they are all authoritarian, and you can dance around that all you want to. It won't change reality, the reality of Abrahamic authoritarian religious dogma. It's your tar baby dude, and it looks good on you!

BZZZ, Wrong. This thread is about what you said in the openning post.

Quote:

Here you prove that even a blind pig (Hitler) can find an acorn once and a while. Even the most evil of people have their moments of rational thought. If this is indeed a quote of his, than he said one thing I agree with. So what?

Well, now we have establised that you accept that a reasonable person can agree with an evil, athoritarian dictator. Is it not also possible for an evil athoritarian dictator to claim to agree with Jesus without actually being a Christian? We can therefore reject the proffered agrument about Franco, et. al., being true representation Christians or Christ's teachings.

Quote:

Going for the big lie, FS? The mark of those who have failed in the use of reason to convince their opponents of the correctness of their opinions. To accuse me of being like you, a follower and supporter of authoritarian dogmatic beliefs is a lie. Period.

Patience weedhopper.

FarSeeker · 01-26-2003, 03:04 PM

DP, posted July 05, 2002 10:40 PM

Quote:

No, I posted it because this thread has gotten off track, nothing more, nothing less. The point of this thread has been made a long time ago, FS and here it is in a nutshell, from the original post and a follow up post of mine:
�
Is mass murder the only answer an omnipotent God had for this sinful behavior? In our time this would be called genocide, the first recorded instance I believe. But for the true believer it is the work of a �just� and �merciful� God? Not in my book�
�First off let me say that I don�t think God is the biggest mass murder of all time, because as a myth, he/she/it is incapable of killing anyone. This of course is a defense that will be unavailable to SB, or FS for that matter, and any other theists for obvious reasons. As a role model though, the myth of God has set a very bad example of what to do when people aren�t behaving as the omnipotent one wants them to. After all, as one who has unlimited power to do anything he wishes to, he saw the �Corruption� of the people and thought, �what should I do?
Should I:
(A) Snap my fingers and make them behave correctly?
(B) Appear in front of them all at the same time and explain that their behavior is wrong and convince them to change their ways?
(C) Find some other imaginative method of convincing them of the error of their ways?
(D) Kill them all, by drowning them like one would drown a litter of kittens one has no use for, except for one family of course, for pissing me off?
I�ll take (D)

Hell of an example he set in your holy book SB, FS. Of course later you appear to pick and chose which examples are true, and which are not in your argument here. How convenient for you�I like the way you gloss over the idea that if the great flood was true, the fact remains that the innocent babies and children, who were with out sin, were murdered anyway by your Just and merciful �God� . Quite an example he set, and it�s an example some of his followers in religion follow to this day�

You have no logical argument to counter this point FS, do you? God and religion are based on faith and superstitious beliefs, nothing more, nothing less. If you wish to swallow this stuff hook line and sinker, so be it. But I look at all the killing done in the name of God over the millenniums and shudder, for as long as we have this God/religion thing so prominent in our collective lives, we�ll have the Osama bin Ladens, the Jim Jones�s, the David Koresh�s and all the other religious nuts willing to kill us all in order to save us. And the time is fast approaching when they�ll have the weapons to do it too.

FS:
First, no, execution is not God�s only answer to sin, it is the last, just as with our criminal law.

An incredible set of responses you chose! I pity any children you have DP, if you (A) brainwash them every time they break your rules. Would you even allow convicted criminals to be brainwashed? That is what you are calling for.

I have no doubt that God did and still does try to reach those committing sin, but (B) would be the equivalent of hovering over the shoulder of your grown children every second of the rest of their lives. Your second idea is not a point of view supportive of personal freedom but is reminiscent of �Big Brother� type of thinking.

God wants people to choose to follow the rules willing. He does not force people to follow His Laws, i.e. no Christian is perfect. When mistakes are made, humble admission and repentance for sins will bring mercy and forgiveness, but unrepentant and unrestrained sin will bring punishment. That is not authoritarianism any more than the U.S. government is authoritarian.

You teach your children what is right. You then let them live their lives. Is that so hard for Atheists to understand? God is not a government; the Bible refers to Him often as the Father. Now, admittedly, more is involved than just being a father, like being the Creator and Final Judge, but that is His responsibility. God has the right to judge, sentence and carry out sentence on the guilty. Again, that is no more authoritarian than the U.S. Supreme Court.

(C) You can try to convince criminals to not break the law, but if it doesn�t work, what then? They can be justifiably removed from society; sometimes by execution. Or are you admitting that the reason for the rise in crime is that you haven�t found an imaginative enough method of convincing people what is wrong?

Sadly, DP, too many Atheists have chosen (D).

The Old Testament is not trying provide the kind of example you are claiming DP. What Jesus teaches does. He understands we are not perfect, and He forgives when you repent. I could provide quotes for you to prove this, but (despite you demands for proof) eveytime I quote the Bible, you react like a vampire seeing a cross. So I'll hold off on that.

I don�t pick and choose, and I have NOT stated the Flood wasn�t true. Again, Atheists are always demanding evidence from Christians, so I require the same of you: evidence that any children died in the Flood. The fact remains that you have not show any reason to believe that children were killed in the flood. Face it, you�ve lost that argument; you have no evidence. Give it up and move on.

As to your closing statement:
I look at the killing committed by Atheists in the 20th century alone and shudder. Let�s look at the history of Atheism:
I will leave out the murders done by revolutionary Atheists between Marx�s and Lenin�s times.
Lenin, recorded to have caused 14 million deaths.
Stalin is reported to have cause 30 million.
Mao and his followers are reported to have caused a large number of deaths too. As Atheists still rule there, I don�t have a clear count.
Pol Pot comes in about 2 million.
Then there are the heres and theres of other Eastern Germany, Eastern Europe and Eastern Asian Atheists.

That is at least 46 million dead in "civilized" societies and IN JUST THE 20th CENTURY!!
Where as it took Christians (while trying to civilize about 10 nomadic and violent tribes) about 17 centuries to reach Amergin�s stated score.

By the end of the 21st, I suspect Atheists like DP will be sitting on government committees asking: �Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Christian religion?� and those who answer �yes� will be �marginalized.�

DP, your dogma is frightening. It is based prejudice and hatred. My faith is based on history, science and personal experience. Look at it this way: if God doesn�t exist, then all the killing was done because of that human reasoning you are so proud of. If that is true, your thesis becomes incoherent, reasoning alone cannot create and maintain an acceptable morality. If He does exist, then all your reasoning is wrong.

DP, somewhere in your thinking you believe that emotion can be separated from logic in humans and reasoning will always win out over all else so that the majority will always agree with you, sadly this is a failure of your reasoning skills. Humans are not like Star Trek�s Vulcans, emotions and other things influence humanity�s reasoning. The founding fathers of the US understood this, and made allowances for it; you do not understand it. Your hatred of Christians, caused by your fear or paranoia of them (revealed by your statements that we are a threat to you), coupled with your call for marginalization* will (if you continue to spread these memes) cause the very type of acts you claim to condemn, but this time you will have been one of the instigators.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

Quote:

*mar�gin�al�ize
Pronunciation: 'm�rj-n&-"lIz, 'm�r-j&-n&l-"Iz
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -ized; -iz�ing
Date: 1970
: to relegate to a marginal position within a society or group

This is an act committed on a group by another group. It is not something a group does to itself voluntarily.

One of your dogmatic beliefs is simply the reasoning that you, and you alone, are right.

Jack the Bodiless · 01-27-2003, 05:18 AM

Farseeker:

Quote:

An incredible set of responses you chose! I pity any children you have DP, if you (A) brainwash them every time they break your rules. Would you even allow convicted criminals to be brainwashed? That is what you are calling for.

Behavioral conditioning of children IS a form of brainwashing. However, it appears that your preferred solution is infanticide.

You intend to kill your own children if they disobey you, as the Bible commands?

Quote:

God wants people to choose to follow the rules willing. He does not force people to follow His Laws...

He threatens murder and eternal torture of those who refuse. To call this "not forcing" is classic doublethink. The reason God doesn't actually reprogram people is because, being nonexistent, he lacks this power. The priesthood, however, DOES exist, and can use threats on those they manage to fool.

Quote:

I don�t pick and choose, and I have NOT stated the Flood wasn�t true. Again, Atheists are always demanding evidence from Christians, so I require the same of you: evidence that any children died in the Flood. The fact remains that you have not show any reason to believe that children were killed in the flood. Face it, you�ve lost that argument; you have no evidence. Give it up and move on.

We WON that argument. The fact remains that God is a babykiller. There are numerous examples of this: such as the killing of the child of David and Bathsheba.

But some arguments are just so mind-numbingly stupid that they don't need "evidence" to debunk them, and "God didn't kill any babies in the Flood" (or the massacre of the Egyptian firstborn) is indeed a mind-numbingly stupid argument. It's like a Nazi arguing that every single victim of the Holocaust was guilty of a capital crime and "no innocents were killed at all".

You are an apologist for genocide, Farseeker. You are morally equivalent to a Holocaust-denier, and your arguments are very similar.

Especially as the massacre of innocent babies was entirely in character for the Biblical God. You only have to read the Bible to see what an angry, bloodthirsty butcher he supposedly was! This is NOT a being who would be expected to spare babies! He supposedly ordered the massacre of the pets and farm animals of his enemies!

Quote:

As to your closing statement:
I look at the killing committed by Atheists in the 20th century alone and shudder. Let�s look at the history of Atheism:
I will leave out the murders done by revolutionary Atheists between Marx�s and Lenin�s times.
Lenin, recorded to have caused 14 million deaths.
Stalin is reported to have cause 30 million.
Mao and his followers are reported to have caused a large number of deaths too. As Atheists still rule there, I don�t have a clear count.
Pol Pot comes in about 2 million.
Then there are the heres and theres of other Eastern Germany, Eastern Europe and Eastern Asian Atheists.

And all of these people were ROUND-EARTHERS too!

You have utterly failed to address the terrible death toll that round-Earthism brought to the world!

Unless you can come up with some sort of ARGUMENT that these massacres were caused BY atheism, then you are a hypocrite if you don't champion the (Biblical) belief that the Earth is flat!

David M. Payne · 01-28-2003, 05:21 PM

Nice post Jack. But I'm afraid that FS will continue to try to press the idea that Atheism=Marxism, because that's all he has to fall back on when we compare the evil done in the name of God/religion with other authoritarian dogmas. FS, Joe McCarthy is dead, and so is McCarthyism. Sorry FS, but to try and equate atheism/agnosticism, which is a non-belief or a skeptical look at a God, with a very strong belief in God/religion is futile. This thread made it's point long ago, and it's only because of theists like you that it still hangs around for so long. Give it a rest, dude, either your God is the biggest mass murderer of all time, or he is a figment of your theist collective imaginations. I say figment, but you can say he/it is the biggest mass murderer of all time. I think a reposting of this below is in order here. God/religion is your tar baby, and it looks good on you, FS.

Quote:

Originally posted by David M. Payne
Amusing FS, but beside the point as usual. We all repeat ourselves responding to you, and the problems of God/religion. After all that�s what this site is about in great part, the problems of God/religion, and what to do about them, among other things. So I don't think I misinterpret things at all, but that�s what makes it a debate, isn't it? Your whole post here assumes one thing, (correct me if I'm wrong) that atheism and God/religion are on different sides of the same coin, rivals for power. As rivals they have had the same will to power and have used it for good, or evil, right? They aren�t rivals for power FS, nor are they any kind of equals, they are two different things. One thing, Abrahamic religion, is an authoritarian dogma and is immensely powerful. The other thing, atheism, is the non-belief in God, and it is not powerful at all. That doesn�t mean some atheists aren�t powerful, but I'll get to that later.

The Abrahamic Religions are active authoritarian religious movements that seek to have their will imposed on everyone, "willingly" or otherwise. In addition they are in conflict with each other, as is plainly visible to even a casual observer of history or current world events. And this conflict has no end that I can see, for they all believe they have the true path to God and salvation, and the others are false paths, and are led by false prophets. (See The Story of Bob, for a much longer, more in depth and more amusing look at this argument here.) And they excuse the act of genocide etc that your God was fabled to have done in the great flood as "necessary," or "justified." You can peddle that "Gods ends justify his means" BS belief all you want FS, I'm not buying into it. It's the same rationalization that the Marxist and Fascists use. I wonder where they got it?

Atheism is just the non-belief in God, there is no other dogma that atheists follow that flows out of atheism. Period.

Some atheists are also followers of other kinds of authoritarian dogma, such as Marxism or Fascism, which resemble religious dogma in how they operate, but that is what they follow, authoritarian dogma, not the tenets of atheism. There aren't any tenets of atheism, it is simply the non-belief in a God. I also condemn all the other forms of authoritarian dogma, secular or religious. So again, the evil done by some people who were atheists flowed out of their own authoritarian beliefs, Marxism, Fascism etc, and not atheism. I don't think I can say it any plainer than that FS. You seek to compare the two as though they were apples and apples. But the comparison isn't valid. They aren�t even apples and oranges. Again, there are no tenets of atheism, but there are plenty in all the religious and secular authoritarian dogmas, aren�t there? And the Abrahamic religions are by definition authoritarian, aren�t they? How can I say that? What are they based on? The belief in God. Who is this God? He is the most powerful being in the universe, the creator of everything, the ultimate authority. And there is the reason these religions are by necessity authoritarian. Their whole reason for being, is based on believing in the ultimate authority, God, and his tenets, as expressed in the holy books said to be his word. This God/religion belief is the essence of authoritarianism. Perhaps it is even the geneses of all authoritarianism.

So, anybody seen God or his boy Jesus lately? How about the prophet Mohammad, anybody seen him lately? Therein lies the rub, doesn�t it? As I said before, without a God or his clearly delegated heir/prophet around to exercise his authority, who ends up in charge? Humans, who follow what ever they want to follow, and call it the word and will of God. History clearly demonstrates that whoever can grab the reins of religious power and hold on, chasing "The Usual," of course, will end up very powerful indeed. There is no logical way around that reality of the Abrahamic religions being controlled by an authoritarian dogma. As long as that�s the case, the potential for misuse is always going to be there. Same for the other authoritarian dogmas, Marxism and Fascism etc, that�s why I oppose them too. They are on the other side of that coin I believe, though Fascism has been on both sides from time to time.

Its not the belief in God that�s the problem really, it�s the belief in an omnipotent God who is the ultimate authority, and the logical well spring for the authoritarian dogmas that result from that belief, that are the real problem. Hopefully humanity will grow up, realize that the only being that will ever save us is the human being, and start to deal more realistically with our secular, real world problems. The more we move away from authoritarian dogma and towards more democratic forms of power, the better we will be.
The Abrahamic religions can never really move away from their authoritarian dogma, and still believe in their concept of God. For that reason we need to take the power to commit evil away from them. I believe over time humanity will do that, as has happened in Europe and other more "enlightened" parts of the world. Like the AI in the movie "The Matrix," who depend on people, the "Copper Tops" for power, so does religion. If we can wean (Unplug) enough people off the tit (Grid) of God/religion, it will fade into the dustbin of history. If we can survive the tendency of these religions to engage in 9/11 type behavior and end up destroying us all first, that is. That�s why I fear religion, not for its tenets, or its belief in a fairy tale being, but for its ability to get massive numbers of people to join in authoritarian regimes and do evil things, things against the best interests of the survival of humanity. Things like 9/11, and whatever comes next.

David

"God and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still sucks them in today, so free your mind, and your body will follow!"

Pee Pee Poodle · 01-29-2003, 09:46 AM

[Image deleted for irrelevancy.]

d

01-29-2003, 11:38 AM

Hello David, I did not read this thread but here is my argument for the existence of God and please feel free to respond to it.

Here is a simple argument from definiton:

Quote:

A gnostic knows and an agnostic does not know. This makes the gnostic equal to God and since we are created in the image of God we only need to obtain the mind of God to realize that we are God. The agnostic does not realize this.

In between we have the believer who does not "know" but may or may not have "correct opinion." Believers are subdivided from the enriched believer called "mystic" to the impoverished believer called "atheist." Beyond this the fact remains that everybody can become God, or at least become the continuity of God after whom they were created, and "realization"-- or realization by any other name-- is required to achieve this.

Is God the biggest mass murderer?

No, God is Love and has no life. Is the concept God the cause of murder? Yes, because until we realize that we are God are we torn between the God/no God dichotomy that exist in our own conscious mind only (because in our subconscious mind we are God). From this chaos both life is created and life is taken in and through the love-hate relationship between these two.

PS. In the above enthymeme God no longer exist when we become God (which must be obviuos). So to deny God until we are God is the distant cause of murder and now the reverse of what you hold to be true is actually true and therefore your position is the cause of murder.

PPS. Why does God have no Life? So we can become God.

David M. Payne · 01-30-2003, 09:37 PM

So Pee Pee, who won the race?

Hi Amos, respond to what? That makes no sense to me at all, sorry.

David

"God and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still sucks them in today. So free your mind, and your body will follow!"

01-30-2003, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David M. Payne
Hi Amos, respond to what? That makes no sense to me at all, sorry.

Exactly and that is why your postition is the cause of murder. I should qualify this to say that atheists are much more resigned about their destiny than are ill perceiving believers. So now I will admid that the ill perceived concept God by believers is the biggest mass murder. But the fact remains that God is not the cause of this but human error is. Then you can say that the bible should have been written in simple language in which case you imply that we don't understand it in which case we are stupid to act upon something we do not understand.

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01-29-2003, 09:46 AM	#327
Pee Pee Poodle Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: USA Posts: 59	[Image deleted for irrelevancy.] d

01-30-2003, 09:37 PM	#329
David M. Payne Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The land of chain smoking, bible thumping, holy ro Posts: 1,248	So Pee Pee, who won the race? Hi Amos, respond to what? That makes no sense to me at all, sorry. David "God and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still sucks them in today. So free your mind, and your body will follow!"

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