Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dargo · 08-06-2003, 05:32 PM

During my deconversion period I was desperately searching and praying for even the tiniest evidence of gods existence. If I had seen even a fraction of the evidence for god's existence that I have for a chair's existence I would still be a Christian.

Your chair analogy is interesting. I am trusting in this chair to support my weight, and it's doing a perfectly good job of it. No matter how much faith I put in an invisible chair to support my weight, I would fall down on my ass if I tried to sit on it. That's exactly what happened virtually every time I trusted in god to take care of me. It was the repeated failure of god to be there when I needed him, that caused my to question my faith in the first place.

Darth Dane · 08-07-2003, 03:03 AM

It was the repeated failure of god to be there when I needed him, that caused my to question my faith in the first place

Could it be argued that God inspired you to stand on your own feet?

DD - Love & Laughter

toopidpaka · 08-07-2003, 04:40 AM

Wow! I am an ugly old man... wasn't able to get married as no girls like me... I once had faith in god, but it didn't get me a wife, gradually I lost my faith, and went to an adult shop and got myself a 'rubber wife'... guess what, I'm being inspired by god!!!

Darth Dane · 08-07-2003, 05:23 AM

Should we stop believing because things didn't pan out as you wished for?

"Father take this cup away from me, but let thy will be done" - Jesus

How difficult must it be, to let the will of God supercede one's own?

DD - Love & Laughter

orpheus last chant · 08-07-2003, 05:28 AM

phil said:

Quote:

By 'undeniable proof' I mean a proof that would convince even the most skeptical of minds.

If you think about it, you will find that 'undeniable proof' is impossible, even for an inanimate object such as a chair. There are people who don't believe in corporeal existence and that everything is in the mind. If you tell them to touch the chair they will say that is not proof because it is just a figment of their conscieousness.

That is soo, easy to disprove. may I, the figment of the said solipsist, take chair, also a figment of imagination, and kick the only existing thing in teh universe - his head.

If everything exists except your own mind, that mind, has to be located in a brain, the brain fed with glucose that requires a body, that requires air to breath, that requires an athmosphere, that requires a biosphere etc.

And if this is my imagination, why can't i do things abnormal, like ply off my window, i can always dot hat when i imagine.

Quote:

quote:
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In other words, love or hate are subjective reactions to sensory experiences, not sensory experiences in and of themselves and shouldn't be properly categorized as such
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True, love and hate are perceptions of the mind, but aren't sight, sound etc. too? The normal 5 senses of taste, touch etc. are direct perceptions while things like love, hate etc. are derived from experiences recieved from the five senses.

However, it is still the mind that percieves whether something is hot or loud etc. and it is still the mind that percieves love, hate etc.

How would you prove love, hate etc. existed if you did not consider the perception of the mind a valid 'sense'?

pariah

Love and hate are not perceptions. That is what the brain constructs as an image from the data coming from your sensory sistem. Love and hate are hormone based highs. Hate is good for stayin alive in life threatening situations, love is good to pass on genes.

Quote:

quote:
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Originally posted by Quantum Ninja
But even if the chair is a figment of the observer's consciousness, it still exists in some sense. The thought, the visual perception of a chair, exists.

Just by admitting that you perceive a chair, you are acknowledging its (subjective) existence.

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But couldn't the same argument be made for a God?

said Darth Dane

Yes, and god is resulted to be a brain-image not depicting reality, or at best, a concept. just like Santa.

Quote:

I went walking and saw a horse.

Now I tell you here that I saw a horse.

You will most likely believe me, mainly I guess because you have also seen a horse...before listening to me.

My personal experience, cannot be validated, but you indirectly validate it, because it fits with what you know is possible to see in the world. And so you believe my words, you don't need my eyes.

Wrong. Just because I trust your honesty, does not make your story valid. You may lie. And the analogy with the angel is not valid. Extrordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
i may trust your sight if you saw a horse, although your sight can be wrong. But an angel?

Quote:

If I say I saw an angel, then we enter the twillight zone, as you may not believe in "angels" or other religious stuff.
I still say I saw it, based on my sensory apparatus, but you don't believe because your reality perception doesn't include "angels" as being "real".

My mind doesn't even possess a definition for angel, care to give one?

OLC

joedad · 08-07-2003, 08:37 AM

Quote:

orpheus last chant:
That is soo, easy to disprove. may I, the figment of the said solipsist, take chair, also a figment of imagination, and kick the only existing thing in teh universe - his head.

I was thinking along those same lines but didn't want to appear violent. (I AM violent but just don't want to appear so.

)

So how many good bops would it take before the boppee was convinced absolutely of the chair's existence?

Now taking volunteers...

TomboyMom · 08-07-2003, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Give undeniable proof that your chair exists, without a shadow of a doubt.

My butt is not on the floor. Q.E.D.

Instead of undeniable proof of the existence of god, how about a shred of evidence?

You seem to think that if I require any evidence for anything, then I also require undeniable evidence for everything. Because I doubt and am skeptical does not mean that I require undeniable proof of anything, just proof sufficient for me to rely on in my daily affairs. And the level of proof should be suitable for the outlandishness of the claim being made. That I am sitting on a chair is a commonplace claim requiring only a minimal level of proof, more than fulfilled by the fact that by butt is not on the floor. That there is an invisible but all-powerful being responsible for creating this world I live in is an outlandish claim and so would require a much higher level of proof. However, I have never seen a shred of evidence to support this claim.

BTW, I'm with A.J. Ayers and the phenomalists that the one thing that cannot be doubted are our sensations. I cannot doubt the sensation of being supported by my chair, although there is a tiny but unlikely possibility that it is being caused by my imagination. I have no sensation tending to indicate the existence of god, because god is invisible, intangible, etc.

Rene

TomboyMom · 08-07-2003, 10:46 AM

Quote:

The truth is we cannot prove the existence of anything, but only collect evidence that points to existence. We cannot prove that gravity exists, yet every experiment involving (what we call) gravity points to its existence. To prove something conclusively would take an infinite amount of exeperiments, each one varying the variables.

Absolutely. So think of an experiment that tends to prove or disprove the existence of god. If god exists, then... If god does not exist, then...

Then perform the experiment and see if you get any evidence for the EOG.

Rene

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08-06-2003, 05:32 PM	#51
Dargo Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 713	During my deconversion period I was desperately searching and praying for even the tiniest evidence of gods existence. If I had seen even a fraction of the evidence for god's existence that I have for a chair's existence I would still be a Christian. Your chair analogy is interesting. I am trusting in this chair to support my weight, and it's doing a perfectly good job of it. No matter how much faith I put in an invisible chair to support my weight, I would fall down on my ass if I tried to sit on it. That's exactly what happened virtually every time I trusted in god to take care of me. It was the repeated failure of god to be there when I needed him, that caused my to question my faith in the first place.

08-07-2003, 03:03 AM	#52
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	It was the repeated failure of god to be there when I needed him, that caused my to question my faith in the first place Could it be argued that God inspired you to stand on your own feet? DD - Love & Laughter

08-07-2003, 04:40 AM	#53
toopidpaka New Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Singapore Posts: 1	Wow! I am an ugly old man... wasn't able to get married as no girls like me... I once had faith in god, but it didn't get me a wife, gradually I lost my faith, and went to an adult shop and got myself a 'rubber wife'... guess what, I'm being inspired by god!!!

08-07-2003, 05:23 AM	#54
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	Should we stop believing because things didn't pan out as you wished for? "Father take this cup away from me, but let thy will be done" - Jesus How difficult must it be, to let the will of God supercede one's own? DD - Love & Laughter

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