Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bobzammel · 12-15-2002, 08:03 AM

I've noticed that some Christians attempt to cover up some troubling bible verses-verses which honestly, if you were to follow them, would pretty much test human endurance and honestly if followed might drive someone completely batty.

The first is the infamous Luke 14:26. Apologists claim that this means "Love less". However the original Greek root of the word is miseo, meaning clearly hate. The context-and other passages such as Luke 18:29, make it clear to the reader that Jesus is clearly asking his disciples to totally forsake and abandon their loved ones to embrace a life of self-denial and preaching.

Another is the concept of flesh, found mostly in the epistles. Many Christians claim that "Flesh" is mainly some spiritual inheritance from Adam-"the sin nature" if you will. However this is not really found in the text. Paul is clearly telling us that the body is totally evil and only our spirits are good, which not only is something not really present in the Old Testament(Except in the pre-flood world). It is also very similar to Greek philosophy. Interpetation of Paul's teachings even caused the Gnostic schism. However later on Paul seems to state that carnal things such as food, drink, and martial sex are OK and are gifts from God. The Paul of Romans is clearly Gnostic and asthetic; however other letters seem to show him being not-so-gnostic.

Origian · 12-15-2002, 11:18 AM

With your latter point it is important to note that Paul's later letters are actually believed to have been written by someone other than Paul - simple forgery in the name of the Church. Great.

Starboy · 12-15-2002, 12:09 PM

I suppose they thought the lies would be excused because they were for a "good" cause.

Gracchus · 12-15-2002, 05:21 PM

KJV 2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
2 For the king said to Joab the captain of the host, which was with him, Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people, that I may know the number of the people.
3 And Joab said unto the king, Now the LORD thy God add unto the people, how many soever they be, an hundredfold, and that the eyes of my lord the king may see it: but why doth my lord the king delight in this thing?

KJV 1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
2 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it.
3 And Joab answered, The LORD make his people an hundred times so many more as they be: but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel?

Gracchus> WHO?

Bobzammel · 12-16-2002, 01:37 PM

The Satan thing is probably a post-exilic edit. After the exile is the point where Satan evolved from Angelic prosecutor to the Father of lies. This is mainly from Zoroastarian influence. The thought of Satan as a bad guy, although it is to be found in Jewish as well as Christian traditions, is really nowhere in the OT.

Atticus_Finch · 12-17-2002, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bobzammel:
<strong>The Satan thing is probably a post-exilic edit. After the exile is the point where Satan evolved from Angelic prosecutor to the Father of lies. This is mainly from Zoroastarian influence. The thought of Satan as a bad guy, although it is to be found in Jewish as well as Christian traditions, is really nowhere in the OT.</strong>

Have you read the book of Job?

Regards,

Finch

Mageth · 12-17-2002, 01:39 PM

Have you read the book of Job?

Have you? I would say the Lucifer presented in Job fits perfectly with this description. He's in Heaven, and is shown more in the role of "Angelic Prosecutor" acting on God's direction or at least in concert with God rather than as a "bad guy."

12-15-2002, 08:03 AM	#1
Bobzammel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 276	Christian excuses for troubling bible verses I've noticed that some Christians attempt to cover up some troubling bible verses-verses which honestly, if you were to follow them, would pretty much test human endurance and honestly if followed might drive someone completely batty. The first is the infamous Luke 14:26. Apologists claim that this means "Love less". However the original Greek root of the word is miseo, meaning clearly hate. The context-and other passages such as Luke 18:29, make it clear to the reader that Jesus is clearly asking his disciples to totally forsake and abandon their loved ones to embrace a life of self-denial and preaching. Another is the concept of flesh, found mostly in the epistles. Many Christians claim that "Flesh" is mainly some spiritual inheritance from Adam-"the sin nature" if you will. However this is not really found in the text. Paul is clearly telling us that the body is totally evil and only our spirits are good, which not only is something not really present in the Old Testament(Except in the pre-flood world). It is also very similar to Greek philosophy. Interpetation of Paul's teachings even caused the Gnostic schism. However later on Paul seems to state that carnal things such as food, drink, and martial sex are OK and are gifts from God. The Paul of Romans is clearly Gnostic and asthetic; however other letters seem to show him being not-so-gnostic.

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12-15-2002, 11:18 AM	#2
Origian Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: A cave. On Mars. Posts: 36	With your latter point it is important to note that Paul's later letters are actually believed to have been written by someone other than Paul - simple forgery in the name of the Church. Great.

12-15-2002, 12:09 PM	#3
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	I suppose they thought the lies would be excused because they were for a "good" cause.

12-15-2002, 05:21 PM	#4
Gracchus Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: California Posts: 359	KJV 2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. 2 For the king said to Joab the captain of the host, which was with him, Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people, that I may know the number of the people. 3 And Joab said unto the king, Now the LORD thy God add unto the people, how many soever they be, an hundredfold, and that the eyes of my lord the king may see it: but why doth my lord the king delight in this thing? KJV 1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. 2 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it. 3 And Joab answered, The LORD make his people an hundred times so many more as they be: but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel? Gracchus> WHO?

12-16-2002, 01:37 PM	#5
Bobzammel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 276	The Satan thing is probably a post-exilic edit. After the exile is the point where Satan evolved from Angelic prosecutor to the Father of lies. This is mainly from Zoroastarian influence. The thought of Satan as a bad guy, although it is to be found in Jewish as well as Christian traditions, is really nowhere in the OT.

12-17-2002, 01:39 PM	#7
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Have you read the book of Job? Have you? I would say the Lucifer presented in Job fits perfectly with this description. He's in Heaven, and is shown more in the role of "Angelic Prosecutor" acting on God's direction or at least in concert with God rather than as a "bad guy."

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