Mageth

What was the first cause debbie?

I'm not debbie, but I'd answer that 1) "first cause" is not related to abiogenesis, but to the "creation" of the universe; 2) in terms of the universe, it's not established that there is or must be a "first cause", but if there is, "I don't claim to know" is a satisfactory answer.

It's the religious sort that think a first cause is necessary and that they know what it is.

Where did the microbes come from?

Evolved rom the life forms that preceded microbes, of course.

Where did the monkeys come from?

Evolved from their ancestors, of course.

I find it funny that you blindly accept that life created itself from an apparent "No cause"

Quite a strawman, that. First, abiogenesis is not "blindly" accepted; second, neither I nor I suspect debbie thinks that "life created itself from a "no cause"." Biochemistry and self-organizing principles were responsible. Life emerged from non-life in a natural process.

Oh and what difference does it really make that god formed man of the earth? It says he formed man, not monkeys or microbes and waited for them to evolve before placing him in the garden.

And I find it funny that you blindly accept that god poofed man out of dirt because someone a few thousand years ago recorded a myth in a religious text.

Nickle

Sounds right on the money. Thanks. I guess the properties of what are often attributed to a soul develop just as gradual as properties that we'd call human. A 'grey area' answer for a non-specific term. The only problem is when one interjects supernatural signifigance to a soul. Maybe it's just best to drop such 'jello terms' from our language.

Side note: I'd love to here more about the apes you work with. Maybe a new thread?
A tiny little O Chem final may get in the way for the next few days. Apology in advance for lack of response.

wade-w

In that case, a small correction. You said that humans have four bumps on their teeth. If you look at the lower molars, people of african or european descent have 4, but people from east asia and native americans have 5, in a y pattern.

Badfish

I like this one, who were the monkeys ancestors? And where did there ancestors come from and so on? Did they just *poof* appear from nowhere?

Your so wrapped up in answering questions with incomplete science that "First Cause" doesn't concern you?

You are satisfied to have little knowledge of evolution, yet have no interest in what put those event's into motion?

Conchobar

The hypothesis of soul leads to the invention of god(s) and the delusion of immortality.

Primitive mankind as he/she began to think more and more, and observe the world around them, they had curiosity about how things worked. We still have that curiosity. They wanted to know how springs bubbled up, rivers flowed, volcanoes erupted, rain fell, and the Sun appeared to move across the sky. They wanted to know how we flexed and extended our hands, how we thought and talked.

Since they had no knowledge of chemistry, electricity, electrochemical circuits, they could not rely on a science thousands of years in the future.

They knew that "something" made the spring bubble, and the fingers flex. Something made us think, and when we dreamed, that something could even travel to other places and times. They felt that this something was independent in its action. You could not order it to do this or that. It did what "It wanted." They assumed it was conscious. They called these somethings, spirits (souls). They had little concept that things behaved due to physical properties totally devoid of consciousness. They didn't know that Copper sulfate solution, blue, evapourates to form delicate and very complex crystalind fractals. We know it is due to molecular properties of minerals. But the inventers of spirits would have regarded it as spirit work.

Spirits moved the springs to gush water. Spirits moved the clouds and made them rain. Obviously a spirit in our body made our arms move, our fingers flex, our legs walk. This spirit's consciousness must also be our consciousness. When we sleep, it can escape our bodies and go elsewhere. This spirit was responsible for all that we do, including thinking. When it permanently leaves our body that is death.

Now we know that all of the above can be explained on purely natural mechanisms. We know the pathways of consciousness in the brain. We know our on-off switch is the Ascending Reticular Activating System, which activates the diencephalon and the septal nuclei to make us alert and aware. Connections to the temporo-limbic lobe convey our emotions/affect, to primary sensory areas (visual, auditory, tactile) for perception, to association areas for identification and processing of those perceptions, to the pre-motor cortex to plan complex movements then to the motor cortex to activate the necessary muscles. Spect MRI has mapped though patterns, speech patterns, and even emotional and mystical experiences in the brain. There is no work left over for the soul.

How is this connected to god? Over time, mankind noted that spirits were in trees, rivers, springs, clouds, animals, and even rocks. But we are also lumpers more than splitters. Mankind began to merge the many spirits into groups of greater spirits or gods. Akenaten of Egypt who merged them all into one God, Aten the Sun God reached the apex of the trend. Moses likely was influenced by Akenaten's heresy. He merged all of the male and female Hebrew Gods into one JHWH. Older Jewish manuscripts document the last stages of polytheism, with the plural Elohim.

So the soul, which has essentially lost all meaning in human behaviour, is essential for two reasons. It is part of the complex reasoning (using the term loosely) in creating God. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly is our delusional hope for immortality. We all want to live forever, but we know the body dies. So we can only be immortal if we have that ethereal something in us that outlasts the "mortal body."

This is why humans cling so tenaciously to the soul concept, immortality. And this leads to God and the Bible being defended so savagely from criticism. It contains all of the excuses for believing in spirits, souls, god, and immortality. Some Atheistic gomeral trying to destroy your immortality is the greatest possible threat. It is seen almost like murder.

Conchobar

mike_decock

Of course I'm interested. What you fail to realize is that "Goddidit" is a meaningless non-answer.

-Mike...

Brahma's atheist

Good post Conchobar.

Sabine Grant

oh oh... I will give it a shy try... I am pretty much in the same position as Wilderness. ( hug to you Wilderness by the way).
Could the soul have appeared with the first awareness in the human mind of the concept of God?
The soul is not a physical feature...it represents the spiritual life of a human being. In Italian it is called " anima"... interesting word which relates to the idea of " animated"... made alive.
Would there be the notion of an " anima" without the concept of a higher authority which gave life?
The question is... do apes , cutie chimps etc have the concept of a higher authority in control of life in their minds? are there studies which demonstrate that apes have a sense of "worshipping" an idol or God by observing their social structures?
I wonder if the soul appeared with the first metaphysical question " where the heck did I come from?".

Biff the unclean

It has been known for over 90 years now that chimps and bonobos have ritual. Recently orangutan ritual has been confirmed too. The most dramatic form of chimp ritual is a spinning dance. We have observed gorillas doing a similar dance but with them it seems to be done for the sheer enjoyment of the movement.
The only worshiping/veneration that chimps and gorillas (but not bonobos and orangutans) engage in is that of their Alpha Males. They do concern themselves with imaginary problems (gorillas are big worrywarts) but never with imaginary authority.
Once, a few years ago on an Internet personal appearance, Koko the Gorilla was asked if there was a God. She replied that God was a female gorilla who wore lots of red lipstick. Koko is sometimes given to sarcasm. She added that the person who asked the question was a "stupid bad toilet," but that was not relayed on the Internet.
Gorillas and chimps are conscious of their own mortality.

Debbie T

I find it funny when a theist thinks that we evolved from small particles or microbes or amoebas is something gross, when in their bible it says god made man from dirt.

Badfish you missed the whole point. Whoosh right over your head!