David Gould

I have been having a discussion with SeaKayaker on the Insight into God (Jesus) thread in which I made the following claims:

1.) if God is good and just by the standard human definition, I have nothing to fear from him

2.) if God is not good and just by the standard definition, Christians have as much to fear from him as I do

SeaKayaker is still in the process of thinking about this but I thought I would make it a big deal, because on reflection I think this is a big deal.

There can be no semantic wrigglings out of this one because it is irrelevant what other definitions of those words exist or whether those meanings are denied by God. It is not the words themselves that are important, it is the concepts involved.

I want Christians and atheists to think about this: where am I going wrong here? Or do I indeed have a crucial point?

(I have considered the possibility that I am committing the fallacy of the excluded middle, but I do not see how you can be partially just or partially good. I guess you could have a God that was just and good to believers and unjust and not good to unbelievers. However, this means that God is unjust as selective justice is not justice. And if Christians admit that God does not meet the human definition of the word just, then where does that leave them? He may say that he will give them justice but what does the word of an unjust being actually mean?)

excreationist

<a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/injustices.html" target="_blank">Skeptics Annotated Bible - Injustices</a>

Note that some of their summaries of the passages mightn't be accurate but it is a good starting point for finding interesting passages.

If by the "standard human definition" you mean that being good means to do God's will, then God is good. If being good means trying to minimize the suffering and maximizing the pleasure of everyone (including those that don't worship you), then God is not good.

xoc

The dichotomy is not just/unjust but just/merciful.

Of course the Christian doctrine is that God visited our sins (in justice) upon Jesus. Jesus became sin so God could punish him, for our sin. The Cross is the paramount symbol of God's justice and love made manifest(justice in God's wrath on sin displayed by the cross, love in that Christ gave His life for sinners).

The point of sin is that it is connected directly with man's relationship to God. ("Against you and you only have I sinned O God.") Sins are offences against God. The person that is offended has the right to release the guilty person from punishment. (like a lawsuit that the suer can drop against the offender in court). Or in this case a payment made by another in lieau of the offender is accepted.

Does that mean the Christian is free of all possible punishments of sin? No. There is still the appeal to make restitution to those who were wronged. (stolen from etc. eg. Luke 18:9-10) and "be at peace with all men" as much as possible.

excreationist

a_theistnotatheist:
Yes, in civilized societies we punish crimes. The purpose is to deter others from committing the crimes and to discourage the offender from doing it again, and also so that the victim feels compensated.
So do you believe that God tortures many people eternally? This could be a good deterence and it might make God feel better after the people hurt his feelings (e.g. when they say he doesn't exist) but this isn't a form of rehabilitation or behaviour modification for the offenders since they are never released.

HRGruemm

But he has not the right to judge the alleged offender and determine his punishment in the first place. That would make him a judge in his own cause, which is incompatible with fundamental concepts of justice.

HRG.

Krishna.S

Hi,
I don't think God is into Good and Bad.Good and Bad things are just a state of mind of individual groups or people.He is a very super conscious being.He is the most sensitive of all.
He know's every thing.
So this topic of exploring Good and Bad about God is useless.

regards
Krishna

excreationist

Krishna - we're talking about the Christian God, as revealed in <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/injustices.html" target="_blank">the Bible</a>. Is that the one you're talking about?
Do you think it is a very sensitive thing to torture people eternally just because they don't believe he exists?

kctan

Of course such a god would be useless as well. So pray tell just why it is of worth to waste time upon such a being ?

At the same time it will of course provide an insight for us as to your stand upon this issue of "existence of god".

abe smith

To the initial qy here: for those of us who believe the the "god" you speak of is a non-existent human FICTION, your qy, whether "god" is good or bad makes no sense at-all; of course. Abe

xoc

But God is the objective Source and only absolute reference by which things can be judged. In fact HIs judgment supercedes the quasi-objective judgments that human courts are supposed to align with- being omniscient He already knows all the details of every case and person and can't help but judge accordingly. The sin against the fellow human always turns in implication into being a sin against God. (like the parable of the Sheep and the Goats) OF course God is defined as the God of Truth; it would be by definition impossible for Him to judge unjustly.

God is not a Judge that represents a quasi-objective standard(like society) but a Judge that is the Objective standard. There is enough other "witnesses" to be brought forth I'm sure against the defendent to accord with any semblance of law.