Spenser

Since this original thread was closed, I figured I'd just repost it, I don't think everything was through being said. Plus I'll ask a moderator to provide a link to it. Here goes:

No Absolute Morality, No Argument for God!

Absolute Morality. This seems to be a concept I am coming across that is being used not only to prove God's existence, but the Christian God's existence.

What basis does anyone have to say that "Absolute" Morality exists?

I can already hear it, "cause the bible says so."

There is just as much evidence for this as there is that God exists. If you can't show absolute morality to exist, how can it be used to prove God? Then, even if it were possible to provide evidence, why couldn't it be used to prove the Muslim God instead, what makes it only prove the Xian God?

Appeals to people's own personal moral standards don't cut it. It is simply playing off of emotions. There is not one shred of evidence that there is Absolute Morality and I challenge anyone to show that there is. If evidence of absolute morality cannot be provided then it cannot be used to prove the existence of God.



Then, to add to this, where do you (if you have one) get your objective standard of morality from?

Link

Eric H

Hello Spenser,

Starting with the premise that God exists then there is a way to search for a greatest morality or greatest purpose, of why the universe and life should exist, by finding answers to three questions.

Only search for a greater meaning and a greater purpose as you read this.

1; What greatest purpose can God have to create children in his own image?

From humanities point of view what would be the greatest reason to be created by a God?

The greatest reason God can have to create children is love.
Therefore the ultimate God humanity can have is a God who loves in the greatest way.

God willingly loves all of mankind as he loves HIMSELF, for all time and unconditionally.

Would this be a love so great, that even God could not love in a greater way?

This is the same language used in the greatest commandments.
Can it be that the language used in the greatest commandments applied to God first?
If we were created in the image of God, would it make more sense if humanities greatest purpose hangs on the greatest purpose for God?

Can there be any greater reason to create children, even for God?

2..To find a greatest purpose for all God’s children.

What greatest purpose could God set for humanity? Would it be for everyone to turn to His kind of religion and pray the way that he stipulates, or would it be to banish poverty, gain intellectual superiority, conquer sickness and death, and conquer the universe or is there more?

If the greatest reason God can have to create mankind, is to love each and everyone of us, as he loves himself, then God could create mankind, with the freedom to return God’s love

All of mankind to be created with the freedom to love God the creator unconditionally.

God willingly loves everyone as he loves himself; we also need this same freedom to love everyone in the same way, so that the truth can be complete for God and mankind.

All of mankind to be created with the freedom to love all of God’s children (neighbours) as they love themselves, unconditionally.



3..What greatest thing can God create?

God could create all the stars and planets of the universe; he would then become God the builder.
God could create a whole variety of life with almost no intelligence like plants; he now become God the gardener’
God could create life with more intelligence to hunt for food, look for shelter, mate, and breed a future generation. If the knowledge and intelligence is limited he has now created the animal kingdom. He now becomes God the farmer, a pet owner; their behavior should not cause him too much trouble
God could create life with a progressive way of gaining knowledge and intelligence. God could create life in his own image, a life that could understand him. Creating life in his own image is the greatest form of creation open to him. He now becomes God the Father; his children must be real children to him. He can create nothing greater because he cannot create anything greater than himself.

We can marvel at the great attention to detail that is evident in everything from the tiniest single cell of life and right up to the giant structures of galaxies.

Can you find any greater purpose for all this to exist by challenging the above statements in your mind in an honest way, test them against any religious beliefs, test them against any form of logic.
Did God have the ability to keep sin and evil from man? If the answer is yes, then we can conclude that He had a purpose great enough to allow evil and sin to exist.
Is the freedom to love in this way a purpose great enough to allow evil to exist? Can there be any greater purpose for God to create life? Can there be any greater purpose for humanity to exist? In human terms could this be the ultimate truth, the ultimate purpose for the existence of the universe and life.

peace

Eric

Spenser

Eric,

All the above gibberish has nothing to do with this thread and are nothing more than 3 questions you use in an attempt to assert your God exists with out actually asserting he exists. Open your own thread on 'greatest purpose' if you like or step up to my challenge of the existence of absolute morality...

Eric H

Hello Spenser,


Presumably if you loved someone as you love yourself, then you would not want to hurt, cheat, lie, steal, or do anything else bad to them.

In fact if you loved them as you love yourself then you may want what is best for them, treat them well, look after them in some way.

You seem to have dismissed my argument totally, so does that mean you know something that is morally superior?

As to the proof of God’s existence, we both know there is no absolute proof either for or against.

All we can do is argue a point, and the best argument wins.


Peace

Eric

Cross Examiner

Eric, you've offered some very provocative thoughts which wonderfully demonstrate the importance of presupposition to the deductive reasoning process and the subsequent conclusions. That is, given one's presuppostion that God is, your argument for our given state of reality (e.g. condition of the universe, evil, love etc.) flows naturally and convincingly. Conversely, the presupposition the God is not renders the argument unintelligible. Presuppositions (perspective) matter. Perhaps they are all that matters. Anyway, while I disagree wholeheartedly that this is "gibberish", as Spenser put it, I do agree that it does not directly address his challenge.

Spenser, I figured you and I were done when the mod closed the thread for taking a wrong turn. I'd like to work with you again but I'm managing two other threads at the moment. If I do take up the challenge, I hope you'll put the ad hominem stuff like calling another's ideas "gibberish" away (poor Eric). There are polite ways to disagree. The proof of one's idea being solvent is in the practice. I'll write to some others and then to you.

Sincerely,
BGiC

wordsmyth

I would ask for the following...

1.) A clear definition of Absolute Morality.

2.) Clear evidence for the existence of Absolute Morality.

3.) Clear evidence that Absolute Morality is tied to a specific deity.

Without these things, there is no argument, just an assertion.

Eric H

Hello Wordsmyth

Quote.Wordsmyth
I would ask for the following...

1.) A clear definition of Absolute Morality.
=============================


I would say in answer to your question, it is to love your neighbour as you love yourself. How can you do anything greater?

If there is a God and he loved us as he loves himself, and if all of humanity loved their neighbours as they loved themselves, then I would say that is absolute morality.

What can there be that is morally greater?

Of course this does not prove the existence of God..

Peace

Eric

Wyz_sub10

The problem with this, Eric H, is that it leaves a lot of room for subjective decisions.

My guess is that Wordsmyth's call for a definition for Absolute morality is intended, in part, to demonstrate the difficulty in drawing an absolute line.

For example, I love my neighbour as I love myself. He is happiest when high on cocaine. I have the means to keep him up to his elbows in coke.

Because I love him and want him to be happy, I will supply him with all the cocaine he can snort. Is this a moral act?

You might say that this will harm him in the long run. Perhaps I cannot see it (sincerely). Perhaps he cannot. Perhaps we both can, but we don't care. His primarily concerned with feeling as joyful as possible, even if it means dying at 35, while I'm happy to keep him happy.

Why is this not a moral act? If this act is not a moral one, how do I know?

Cocaine isn't even a good example. Better examples abound.

NearNihil Experience

"I would say in answer to your question, it is to love your neighbour as you love yourself. How can you do anything greater?

If there is a God and he loved us as he loves himself, and if all of humanity loved their neighbours as they loved themselves, then I would say that is absolute morality.

What can there be that is morally greater?
Of course this does not prove the existence of God..
Eric "

Imagine for a second this scene:

I have a neighbor. I find myself to be dispicable, weak, useless, unable to be loved, all around distraught and NOT DESERVING OF LIFE.

If I love my neighbor as much as I love myself, which is none, then I will do him the favor of taking him to Hell with me, since he deserves no more and no less

And you do not hurt the ones you love...that means You God with all Your imposed death through history.

I can do one greater than loving your neighbor as youself...Love yourself first then you'll have the character to exemplify what it is too be good and open to your neighbors...not just emotionally attached by some archaic idea that doesn't take into account that there are quite a few people out there who Hate themselves and feel anguish at this and want nothing more than to inflict it upon others.

Man and his behaviors are much more complex than people seem to take into account. Love\ hate, black\white, fear\love, good\evil...All are oversimplifications of what it is to live and have conscious behavior and reflection on that behavior. Living uunder this shell, one will never be able to grasp the fullness(sometimes unpleasant) of life.

Rose-colored glasses, eh? Blinders to the reality that life is not equivelant to love?

That is why morality is never absolute...because nothing is absolute. including Nothing.

But I do like to hear that there are still feely-good folks out there like you. Harmless and probably pleasant to talk to.

Spenser

Love thy neighbor as you love thy self. I've heard the same type of what I labeled as gibberish from groups of hippies only they get their morality from the weed they smoke. My point was not to simply dismiss the argument, I just didn't see an argument that applied to this thread. If what you are saying is this:

Then your only going the opposite way from which I would assume you are trying to defend. Every one loves themselves in different ways and considers what is 'best' for them or others in different ways. How exactly is this an argument for an absolute standard of morality? This reeks if subjectivity which only puts you on the same side of the court as myself (at least on the moral argument, not that of the existence of God obviously).

Wordsmyth,


BRAVO! Thank you...



BGiC,

I think the Mod closed the thread cause of how far off the other on going conversation was. If you find that I'm not polite or abrupt or blunt I apologize, that's just my style. I have submersed myself in a world of sarcasm so hopefully some of you find the humor in some of the things I say. Now, time to go find those hippies so I can share in a few puffs of their morality...