MOJO-JOJO

I have begun a dialogue with a close friend of mine regarding the Bible and faith. He has become a devout Catholic believer, and I am an ex-SBC fundamentalist. He asked me to look at the following link.


<a href="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/JP2VER.HTM" target="_blank">Papal Speak</a>

As you can see, its topic matter is the usual first response of believers to non-believers. It has the usual rhetoric of "don't believe what the world tells you, it's Satans trick and it's a bunch of lies, yadda yadda." As Carl Sagan points out in his "Baloney Detection Kit", this is of course one of many red flags to watch for when we are being "told what to think". It discourages the flock from learning "how" to think, which in turn prevents them from critically examining the brainwashing, supersticious doctrine they are being fed.

Has anyone here recently had to respond to a friend's request to check out this kind of rhetoric, and if so, does anyone have a good, concise response or link to this kind of thing?

Thanks

[ May 03, 2002: Message edited by: MOJO-JOJO ]</p>

CX

I usually respond with my favorite scripture from Paul: 1 Thessalonians 5:21

CX

P.S. What exactly is your friend's question. I'm not sure what the point of this encyclical is and frankly I don't have enough interest to read the whole damn thing.

MOJO-JOJO

It really wasn't a specific question, CX. I linked him to this thread
<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=55&t=000271" target="_blank">Jesus' Morality</a>,
mentioning that it made me think of him. He saw my link to "Real Truth", and then asked me to read the above.

I was just curious if anyone had a good link when confronted with the whole "Jesus is the Truth and all else is Satan's lies" thing.

diana

I was just curious if anyone had a good link when confronted with the whole "Jesus is the Truth and all else is Satan's lies" thing.

It's quite possible I'm just being thick, MOJO-JOJO, but why would you need a link to argue against that? Wouldn't a simple "Why do you think so?" get to the heart of the matter?

d

Edited to add: granted, it isn't quite that simple. You'll have to continue to ask the question until they're forced to answer it.

[ May 03, 2002: Message edited by: diana ]</p>

wordsmyth

I've found the best way to handle this with friends(if you want them to remain friends anyway) is to ask them questions... lots of questions. Mix in a question here and there in which you know the answers to each will contradict each other. Machiavellian arguments designed to get your friend to question their own beliefs and them believing all along it was their idea is the best way to keep them friends. Nobody likes to admit their wrong, so its important for them to think they discovered it on their own.

The important part is that you have to know the answers they are going to give before you even ask the question. Answers from xian to xian are almost always the same, so this should be easy.

This is of course, just IMO.

Duvenoy

I don't beat around the bush. The last time I was told Satan was decieving me by a believing friend, I asked for proof of that revered and oft-refered to being's existance and a good reason why such a powerful creature might want to flim-flam my insignificent self. The conversation plummeted downhill from there. It was fun.

Nothing has changed in the friendship except that he no longer trys to witness at me.

luck,

d

DMB

The papal speak is equivalent to selling snake oil. You start off by identifying problems that most people experience (although they may not all be top priority) and then claim (without a shred of proof) to have the all-purpose answer.

DMB

One of the problems with religions like this is that the believers are so enmeshed in the whole edifice of belief that they can't understand the mindset of anyone outside the fence.

When I was an undergraduate in England back in the late 50s, I sent off for a course of leaflets entitled "The Truth about the Catholic Church". I did this because while I had been steeped in CofE doctrine, I didn't know much about catholicism.

I was sent 20 leaflets, one a week. The first one attempted to prove the existence of god, using all the standard methods. (I understand it is an item of catholic doctrine that the existence of god is provable.)

This was the first time I had ever been exposed to these "proofs", and, of course, I saw flaws in them. With the leaflets came access to a Jesuit priest who was prepared to answer questions. I duly sent him all my objections to the "proofs". Back came reiterations of the original "proofs" in slightly different wording.

I realised at this point that a meaningful dialogue was impossible.

I will give an even more bizarre example. A few years back a fundie American friend of mine decided to try to convert me and my husband. She wasn't up to arguing with us personally, so she sent us literature supplied by her pastor (a YEC).

One booklet was called something like answers to sceptics. The quality of its arguments can be illustrated by the fact that it claimed that the bible was an eye-witness document. It then proceeded to deduce that muslims were wrong because they rejected this eye-witness document.

If you really want to discuss religion with someone who accepts this kind of thing, you will really have to chip away at layer after layer. It is a monumental task.

cydonia

I think some of the most compelling evidence that Satan is making you doubt is the fact that over the centuries, a bunch of people have said so.

[ May 04, 2002: Message edited by: cydonia ]</p>