Fiach

One area that needs more clarification is that of choice in belief and its consequences. I don't think that any of us choose to believe anything. We believe that the Rocky Mountains exist because we and every person with eyesight can see them. We don't choose to believe that they exist as we stand at the Lodge at Lake Louise. We don't choose to believe that we are tired after working 10 hours without a break. We can't see Atoms and protons but we know they exist because of the abundant scientific data, the secondary results of chemical reactions etc. We know atoms are real, we don't choose to believe in atoms.

We don't believe in cubical spheres, the square root of minus one, or that a snail can play Lord Gordon's Reel on a fiddle. We know that those are not possible by any natural law. We don't believe them; we don't choose to not believe.

I don't like asparagus. I like most foods all too well. But I hate the taste of asparaagus. My parents both liked the taste of it. And I liked everything that they offered me to eat, but asparagus made me gag. I didn't choose to dislike the taste of asparagus, I just did because of how my taste buds and olfactory gyrus interpreted that taste. I had no problem with haggis which most people don't like.

God is in a different category. He is invisible, inaudible, intangible, and non-tactile to our investigation. But so is outer space dark matter. He is or is not the creator of the universe. If he is such a creator we don't know if he is sentient (conscious) and intelligent or on a level different from human mentality. As a result some people believe and others do not. It might seem like choice but I can tell you it is not. If it were simple choice, I would have been a believer since childhood.

My life would have been far nicer if I could have honestly identified as a believer. There is no advantage anywhere in being a non-believer, only varying degrees of negative social stigma.

So here is my question. If I did (and I did) spend years wrestling with the question of God's existence. I was taught standard Christian (Anglican almost Catholic) theology. I studied the bible and had as I said taken a theology elective in each of my four years at university. I had counselling with our local pastor. I did this because I "wanted" to believe. I tried to choose to believe but it just wouldn't stick. Now as I note a few grey hairs among my formerly solid black mane, I note my approaching mortality. I want to be "right". So I try to find a reason, even an excuse to believe in God and have immortality. That is a very desirable situation.

An Atheist believes that at death, all is over forever. That is not very pleasant. So I should be motivated to find that I am wrong. I know that my elder years would be nicer if I looked forward to an afterlife and a good afterlife. But my brain networking will not process the data and classify it as possible, probable, or rational. It therefore rejects the God hypothesis. It is not a conscious choice not to believe. When one believes, it seems to that person that it is a choice, but that is an illusion.

I know that all Christians likely will cling to the choice answer, so I am aiming at fellow Atheists and Agnostics because we are so often accused of choosing not to believe.


Fiach

JEST2ASK

:notworthy: :notworthy:
I am Unable to believe that which I do Not beleve ..... The way I have framed it in my mind but you say it (think /write) so much better

[qoute]
. It might seem like choice but I can tell you it is not. If it were simple choice, I would have been a believer since childhood.

My life would have been far nicer if I could have honestly identified as a believer. There is no advantage anywhere in being a non-believer, only varying degrees of negative social stigma.

So here is my question. If I did (and I did) spend years wrestling with the question of God's existence. I was taught standard Christian (Anglican almost Catholic) theology. I studied the bible and had as I said taken a theology elective in each of my four years at university. I had counselling with our local pastor. I did this because I "wanted" to believe. I tried to choose to believe but it just wouldn't stick. Now as I note a few grey hairs among my formerly solid black mane, I note my approaching mortality. I want to be "right". So I try to find a reason, even an excuse to believe in God and have immortality. That is a very desirable situation.

An Atheist believes that at death, all is over forever. That is not very pleasant. So I should be motivated to find that I am wrong. I know that my elder years would be nicer if I looked forward to an afterlife and a good afterlife. But my brain networking will not process the data and classify it as possible, probable, or rational. It therefore rejects the God hypothesis. It is not a conscious choice not to believe. When one believes, it seems to that person that it is a choice, but that is an illusion.

I know that all Christians likely will cling to the choice answer, so I am aiming at fellow Atheists and Agnostics because we are so often accused of choosing not to believe.


Fiach [/QUOTE] I was raised American Baptist and have not had the formal training you did but ..... the similarities are so close to what I am struggking with. I constantly question myself, my motives, my intellect even my own senses.

In fact one of things that bothers me about this site is how many people echo my thoughts / emotions.
( However like you:notworthy: in a much more intelligent fashion).

edited to correct smilies & add P.S. --- I am first to respond , 1st evr I think for me)

Sue Sponte

MOST atheists may believe this, but I'm not certain it is a requirement. Atheism, in my mind, is the disbelief in THEISM. That I do not believe the human writings contained in religious texts is true does not require a definitive conclusion that there is no form of afterlife, but rather merely a conclusion that the afterlife, and the means to get there, espoused in human-drafted religious texts is not accurate.

I don't believe the bible's depiction of an afterlife, but I am not convinced that there isn't some form of afterlife. I am convinced that my body will decay in the earth (assuming my kin have the decency to bury me), but beyond that I have no grounds for believing any particular form of speculation as to what may happen. Given the lack of any reasonable data on which to form a conclusion, I simply categorize post-death as unknowable.

Fiach

Absolutely correct, non-believe in an afterlife is not a requirement for being an atheist. Technically one can be religious in the Buddhist context does not exlude one from being atheist.

It is an indirect connection. People who believe in or wish to believe in an afterlife, find it easier if they believe in an immortal god. If spirits are immortal, and humans have a spirit in the image and likeness of God, then God's existence reinforces the delusion of immortality. But you are correct that Atheism is just what it says, an absence of believe in the existence of Gods. It can exist while a person retains a delusion of immortality, despite the fact that one of its underpinnings is gone. Souls, the primary pretext for immortality, is probably the result of dreaming and of purely physiological out of body experiences. Those could reinforce the delusion of immortality making God unnecessary.

Thanks for clarifying that. I must add it to my file on this subject.

Fiach

Sue Sponte

Good to see you have an open mind, Fiatch. I'd also add that there is no requirement that a person have any religious beliefs whatsoever to believe in the possibility of an afterlife. Most religions suggest some form of afterlife, but that does not mean that one must be religious to experience the afterlife or that any religion has properly characterized its properties. Most religions presume some form of admission standards for afterlife, which may not be required at all. Or the admission standard may be not believing in religion. Who knows? Nobody does, and that is why no religion should be accepted as gospel. There simply is no basis for accepting any human scripture as an accurate view of what is to come.

Shadowy Man

Actually, I do believe in the square root of minus one. I have had to use it many times in my work.

VonEvilstein

Beat me to it. However, it is a fine reflection on this post, that the only criticisms so far are of a mathematical nature!

. __
\/-1 = i

Fiach

But are due to the specific gene determined hard wiring of the brain, then firm atheists and firm theists do not have a choice in belief. Persecution of them doesn't make sense.

I must add that this must take into account that all biological systems have spectrums. There are people who are not inevitable atheists/sceptics or compulsory theists. There is a spectrum of relatively sceptical people who are usually raised and indoctrinated into theism but who often later repudiate it and admit their atheism. There are some in the middle who may vascillate from theism to agnosticism to atheism back to theism depending on life's experiences and stresses. Then there are the ones tending to theism or theistic thinking but were raised as atheists but later adopted Theism (one son of Madalyn Murray-OHair).

I feel that genetics and neuroanatomy/neurophysiology are involved in religion. Religion depends on certain brain pathways that mediate the various affective, and experiential aspects of the religious experience. The other extreme, and I am one, is of the person who cannot believe in god despite definite attempts to believe.


Fiach

Amie

Hi Fiach
I disagree, I choose to believe in God. No evidence, no data, no visions of God. I draw my own conclusions based on my experiences... I could either believe or I could chalk up my experiences to something else and not believe. I make the *choice* that I feel is right for me.
We are all free to draw our own conclusions and make the choices we make, whether it would be to believe or not. its still a choice. Maybe one does not believe because they feel there is no reason to believe and there is nothing to support the belief but still it seems to be a choice they make.I liked your post Fiach

The AntiChris

Fiach
I disagree.

I'm quite happy to accept that we all have varying genetic predispositions for acceptance or rejection of theistic beliefs, but the notion that we are in some sense "hard-wired" for theistic belief overstates the genetic case.

It seems to me that the material and cultural environment in which we develop is probably a far stronger influence.
I'm sure that, like me, you're incapable of belief in God now. However, how can you be sure what you could be capable of believing given a radically different formative environment?

Chris