Malcolm

Slumtrimpet:

I think Undercurrent has put it pretty well. I think there are 3 main problems.

Firstly - the form of one's reincarnation is generally taught to be dependent on specific types of behaviour in this life. So if you do xyz you will come back as a slug, whereas if you do abc you will be a wealthy, high status human. Because it is impossible to know or prove any of this, it is easy for those in religious power to threaten their followers with future life misery if they do not follow their teachings. Not substantially different from the threat of hell which Christians invoke. Could it even lead to cheapening of the value of life - eg if we kill this individual (or slaughter this nation) now, it will be better for them because they will have another chance to behave properly next time around?

Secondly - it takes all the emphasis off the current life. All I should do is to live the "correct" way, whatever that is, so that I will be in a better situation next time around. Not living as best I can now because it is best for me and those around me here and now, but purely because of the rewards I will reap in the future.

And thirdly - I believe that the whole caste structure in Indian society is based on the logical follow-on from reincarnation (but I am open to correction). Thus if I am born to a higher caste than you, it is because we both deserve our position. It is therefore entirely justifiable for me to discriminate against you because you deserve it. And of course the same goes for those with disabilities, poverty etc.

Regards, Malcolm

seebs

I have no opinion on reincarnation. I have insufficient information to form a conclusion. I know many people who are firmly convinced of it; I am as of yet unpersuaded.

Not my problem. If God thinks I need to try this a few more times, fine by me, it's His game.

Slumtrimpet

To Malcolm and Undercurrent,
Thank you for your responses. I never saw reincarnation in that light. (lack of study?) I always saw it as a personal journey. Although you may have earned the life you currently are faced with as a result of past transgressions, I never saw it as something that should be accepted unquestioningly. I always assumed it was what you did with what you had that dictated where you went next time around. I wouldn't do well in India. It also never occurred to me that being born into "high status" humanity would be considered a reward. I was seeing it more as being born into a loving, caring environment...being healthy etc. as the reward for past deeds. In my version, fighting injustice would only serve to earn you good karma, not interfere with someone else's "just rewards".

I do agree with you, Undercurrent, that there is absolutely no scientific proof for reincarnation. As far as your philosophical beef goes; well...assumably your memory of all your lives returns to you during the spirit stage (between reincarnations) so that you can asses where you are in your journey. Since this is pure speculation, I guess my take on it is as good as anybody's ;-)

Also, in my version, slaughtering an individual or a nation to give them the opportunity to do a better job "next time around" wouldn't be an option since it would hang such a load of bad Karma on you that you could pretty much count on being a slug.

...and then there's the comfort of thinking that this isn't a one shot deal...

Marduk

Reincarnation could have no religious significance at all, it could be completely random, just like everything else.

HaysooChreesto!

But say for instance, I'm a real a-hole in this life. I rob banks, kidnap children for ransom, and get drunk and wantonly murder fellow drunkards. So I'm a real douchebag. I think most people would agree that to be the case.

Now, say I come back as a tarantula due to my past transgressions. How do I move on from the arachnid form? Do I do "good tarantula works" and then move on to say the rodent form next time around? Or as a tarantula, if I eat my young am I now reduced to plant form? Then I guess if I wanted to move from the plant form I'd really have to try and process enough co2 to get back to the insect or arachnid stage.
It doesn't take long for this kind of thinking to spiral out of control and get completely ridiculous very quickly.

A few moments of critical thinking make the idea of reincarnation as outlandish as the Xtian Sky Father.

monkey mind

Some schools of Buddhism teach that karma is not a desirable thing at all. Rather then a scale of "good karma" vs. "bad karma", all karma is considered underiable because it is what drives you into reincarnation over and over again. Rather than good or bad, a person considers whether their karma is heavy or light.

In this school of thought, rather than it being desirable to improve your status in your next incaraton the goal is to stop the reincarnation. After all, if your reborn as a rich person in the next life so what? You'll only be more likely to party, take it easy and take advantage of others which will only lead to going back into a lower incarnation. And so on and so on and so on and so on...

So in this school of thought karma is taught to be action. Karma is taught to be dynamic. It both exerts influence on our lives but our lives also shape our karma. Karma creates "ties" to this world. When you have "heavy" karma you have a lot of things tying you to the material world. You are satisfied with material pleasures and enjoyments. It's difficult to understand outside this material realm.

Behaving in certain ways lighten your karma while other lifestyles will pile on more karma. If because of your karma you are born into the hell realm or animal realm, you will eventually pay off your karmic debt in these existences and be able to be reborn a human again.

It's obviously much easier for a person born into a materially comfortable existence to practice morality, concentration and the obtaining of wisdom. For example, if someone is starving it is more important that they obtain the food they require than studying philosophy.

Another important point about karma in this school of thought is that it is not judged by an outside force. There is no list of good deeds and bad deeds. There is no judge who weighs your deeds and decides your next incarnation. Spiders are not expected to follow the same rules as human beings. Also plants aren' t included because they aren't considered to be sentient. Everything happens basically because you choose. Your karma creates affinities, and you choose your direction based on those affinities.

Memories seem to be pretty unreliable. And (with the exception of some people who make claims) nobody can remember their past lives. However, with karma/rebirth it is believed that every action you've ever performed is recorded even though you can't access it.

That's my basic understanding anyways. Personally, I'm not convinced that reincarnation exists but I can see it's purpose as a religious teaching.

This guy claims to have scientific reasearch on reincarnation but I haven't really read any of his stuff and have no opinion on it

http://www.childpastlives.org/stevenson.htm

right now my favourite explanation of karma and rebirth is the yogacara school. http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhis...basicideas.htm

it seems to me what they are talking about is the same idea as the sub-concious.

openeyes

I have to agree that reincarnation, in any meaningful form, doesn't jive with rational thinking.

There is a lot of study being done on consciousness. It's the result of a certain kind of neuronal activity. Our experiences influence this neuronal activity. No neuronal activity, no consciousness. Neuronal structure in one brain cannot be changed by experience in a different body. When we die (or even before that in some cases) our consciousness dies, and that's it for each particular individual.

thetoastman

Ok. For starters: what's your favorite cereal?

thetoastman

beyelzu

toastman, if i can respond, then i go with fruity pebbles. cuz they are so damn fruity man.

thetoastman

Do you have one, sakrilege?