Freethought & Rationalism Archive

B. H. Manners · 07-20-2003, 08:59 PM

Hello All,

I was discussing the existence of Allah with a Muslim the other day and we came to the concept of authority.

She argued that all authority came from Allah whereas I argued that authority and the concept of authority was something man created. We argued round and round and she kept bringing up the point that if the concept of authority is created by men and enforced on men, we in fact to some degree are really just practicing "might makes right". She went on to say we should not object to Allah having authority over man because he is not doing anything we are not doing---ruling by might.

This concept I guess could relate to Christian and Jewish views of God as well. Basically, how can we declare that our police and politicians have authority over us via our own creation and yet deny such authority to a god?

xorbie · 07-20-2003, 09:54 PM

Whoa! Let me get this straight... are you actually trying to posit the theory that God's power is created by man but somehow God created man? This makes no sense to me whatsoever.

SignOfTheCross · 07-20-2003, 10:05 PM

I think he's atheist man!

Peace,
SOTC

Asha'man · 07-21-2003, 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by B. H. Manners
Basically, how can we declare that our police and politicians have authority over us via our own creation and yet deny such authority to a god?

It's a question of choice.

In theory, the government gets its power by the consent of the people, and the police is just an arm of the government. The people put the government in power, and can take it out of power if it becomes too irresponsible.

God, on the other hand, supposedly put himself in charge, and we can't get rid of him if we wanted. He has authority only because of his might, not because of any action taken by humans.

Stephen T-B · 07-21-2003, 04:31 AM

It depends if we are talking about a democracy or a tyranny.

The authority which a tyrant exercises is arbitrary, and it doesn�t matter if he claims it comes from a god or the fact that he wiped out all the opposition. Those who are subject to it must accept it whether they like it or not. Compare Stalin and Ayatollah Khomanie.

In a democracy, police and politicians exercise authority on behalf of the people - whatever that means.
(It does mean that at pre-ordained intervals, the politicians have to account for their actions to an electorate which may replace them, and require the new bunch to impose a new code of conduct upon the police.)

Jobar · 07-21-2003, 05:41 AM

BH, it's impossible for God to have any authority at all. Only humans ever exert authority over others- I mean, if there were ever a case of God issuing commands directly to people, we wouldn't have this forum, would we? What we have is humans claiming the authority of a god. We never, ever, see the god act for him, her or itself. Scriptures are excuses for priests and other similar conmen to wield spurious authority.

07-20-2003, 08:59 PM	#1
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	God and the "might makes right" question Hello All, I was discussing the existence of Allah with a Muslim the other day and we came to the concept of authority. She argued that all authority came from Allah whereas I argued that authority and the concept of authority was something man created. We argued round and round and she kept bringing up the point that if the concept of authority is created by men and enforced on men, we in fact to some degree are really just practicing "might makes right". She went on to say we should not object to Allah having authority over man because he is not doing anything we are not doing---ruling by might. This concept I guess could relate to Christian and Jewish views of God as well. Basically, how can we declare that our police and politicians have authority over us via our own creation and yet deny such authority to a god?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-20-2003, 09:54 PM	#2
xorbie Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Champaign, IL or Boston, MA Posts: 6,360	Whoa! Let me get this straight... are you actually trying to posit the theory that God's power is created by man but somehow God created man? This makes no sense to me whatsoever.

07-20-2003, 10:05 PM	#3
SignOfTheCross Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 167	I think he's atheist man! Peace, SOTC

07-21-2003, 04:31 AM	#5
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	It depends if we are talking about a democracy or a tyranny. The authority which a tyrant exercises is arbitrary, and it doesn�t matter if he claims it comes from a god or the fact that he wiped out all the opposition. Those who are subject to it must accept it whether they like it or not. Compare Stalin and Ayatollah Khomanie. In a democracy, police and politicians exercise authority on behalf of the people - whatever that means. (It does mean that at pre-ordained intervals, the politicians have to account for their actions to an electorate which may replace them, and require the new bunch to impose a new code of conduct upon the police.)

07-21-2003, 05:41 AM	#6
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	BH, it's impossible for God to have any authority at all. Only humans ever exert authority over others- I mean, if there were ever a case of God issuing commands directly to people, we wouldn't have this forum, would we? What we have is humans claiming the authority of a god. We never, ever, see the god act for him, her or itself. Scriptures are excuses for priests and other similar conmen to wield spurious authority.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.