-DM-

"Personal experience" doesn't cut it for me. "Personal experience" and "faith" are not reliable avenues to truth. There is no believe whatsoever which cannot be held on the basis of faith. Further, "personal experience" seems to tend to be geographical; being born and raised in a predominately Christian country means that "faith" and "personal experience" tend to lead to a Christian faith (if any) whereas being raised in a predominately Muslim country means that "faith" and "personal experience" tend to lead to Islamic faith.

In my estimation, you already have. Remember that many of us were once where you are now in terms of your belief system, thus we have a good idea of what you mean when you talk about what Jesus means to you.

[FYI, I was once a born-again, Bible-believing, evangelistic, Jesus-loving Christian myself. I was on the Board of Elders of my church, a satellite church of a nationally known Bible church, and Chairman of its Christian Education Committee. I was personally discipled by my pastor, a graduate of one of the foremost seminaries in the country. Our children attended Christian schools. In other words, we -- many of us at least -- know what Jesus means to you. It is not as if we are in the dark on that.]

Keep in mind, however, that Jesus probably means no more to you than Muhammad does to a good Muslim.

---------

After you brought up the alleged testimony of Josephus, Tacitus, etc., regarding Jesus, you didn't even bother to address what I posted about it in this thread January 12, 2002 12:20 AM. Basically, you posit this and that, and then sidestep the substantive responses. Please, if you will, discuss what I brought up about those alleged testimonies.

Nor have you addressed that your claim that Jesus is either who he said he was or he is the greatest schizophrenic megalomaniac of all time doesn't begin to cover the possibilities and it is therefore fallacious reasoning.

Nor have you addressed my response to your incorrect understanding of "insight" vs. "reason" and what I said about C. S. Lewis in this regard.

Nor have you answered specific questions which I have asked you. Please at least answer the following [unanswered] questions:

... you speak in tongues and cast out demons?

You cure the sick?

You handle snakes and drink poison and suffer no harm?

--Don--

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Don Morgan ]</p>

HelenM

Muad'Dib

That was an interesting post and I don't think you misrepresented my beliefs about the importance of telling people 'a name' versus showing love to them.

I believe in this:



love
Helen

Jonny

Well I must admit, I'm not as familiar with the Bible as I thought I was. Doc58 where are the verses that I can read about these as you have done?

-DM-

check out my <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/precepts.html" target="_blank">BIBLICAL PRECEPTS: QUESTIONABLE GUIDELINES</a> and you will find these verses referenced as well as more "godly" nonsense.

--Don--

doc58

Jonny,
Sorry it took a while to get back to you with the specific verses but here they are:

1)God rejecting people with birth defects and other abnormalites in the OT by not allowing them full religious temple privileges:

Levitcus 21
17
"Say to Aaron: `For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God.
18
No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed;
19
no man with a crippled foot or hand,
20
or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles.
21
No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the offerings made to the LORD by fire. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God.
22
He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food;
23
yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the LORD, who makes them holy.'"

WHo checked for the damaged testicles???? OUCH

2)Gods command that a rapist and his victim must marry if she is not engaged.

Deut 22
28
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,
29
he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

3) God commands Hosea to marry a prostitute.
Hosea 1
2When the LORD first began speaking to Israel through Hosea, he said to him, "Go and marry a prostitute, so some of her children will be born to you from other men. This will illustrate the way my people have been untrue to me, openly committing adultery against the LORD by worshiping other gods."


4) God deliberately killing Ezekiels wife and telling him not to mourn.

Ezekiel 24
15
The word of the LORD came to me:
16
"Son of man, with one blow I am about to take away from you the delight of your eyes. Yet do not lament or weep or shed any tears.
17
Groan quietly; do not mourn for the dead. Keep your turban fastened and your sandals on your feet; do not cover the lower part of your face or eat the customary food [of mourners]."
18
So I spoke to the people in the morning, and in the evening my wife died.


Doesn't seem to much in line with the all-loving, merciful God who is concerned about family values presented in church does it?

Ron Garrett

Dear Tom in KC:

I sincerely appreciate the mea culpa on behalf of the faithful. All errors I made more than once as an evanglizing Christian.

The challenge for anyone trying to re-convert me now is that after seminary, ministry, doctoral studies (now abandoned), and continued study of the Christian faith, I am so aware of the sheer falsehood I was fed, well-meaningly fed to others, and which still others would like to feed me again, that it simply would not be possible for you, or anyone, regardless of how polite, respectful and winning of personality they might be, to convince me of the invalidity of the evidence against your faith and it's harm to humans and society.

Truth has to stand on its own with me. Emotional maniuplation and playing to my desires for community worked once, but as they say, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." I'm not the unsophisticated young boy I once was when I walked the aisle. Today what you offer must stand critical scrutiny under which Christianity fails most miserably. Your religion is poisonous, barbaric, false and infamous, and those are just the good things.

HelenM

Theologically, you aren't supposed to exist, Ron. Or you are wrong that you really were a Christian - you must have missed something and not actually got saved...

No offense.

That's why I am very frustrated with theology.

In science you throw out a theory once you realize it doesn't fit your observations. But in theology it seems that one is allowed to deny the observations or reinterpret them until they fit the theory.

love
Helen

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by HelenSL:
<strong>In science you throw out a theory once you realize it doesn't fit your observations. But in theology it seems that one is allowed to deny the observations or reinterpret them until they fit the theory.</strong>

Heh. Not only do you throw out the faulty theory in science, you try to do so before the other scientists trample you and your theory into the dust.

Helen, that observation was insightful and concise. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

doc58

Helen,
One of my personal reasons for being sure that Christianity is false is what you said. I know for sure I was a genuine believer, had faith in Jesus Christ as my Savior and all the rest. Now, I am without faith and belief. That should never happen if the Christianity is true.
This is only evidence to me because only I truly know my beliefs in the past and present but it is very compelling for me.

-DM-

Ditto both me and my wife. Of course we were taught that once a Christian, always a Christian, so I guess that would mean that I am an atheistically-inclined agnostic Christian -- which isn't much more of an oxymoron than many other aspects of Christian theology.

--Don--