Mr. Sammi

There is an idea floating around in philosophy called : THE ULTIMATE PROOF OF ITSELF. If you ask whether this idea exists at Stanford OR Harvard, I have no answer to this question.

The origin of such a clause in existence, if such a clause does really exist, is quite up for debate. However, even this thread and the ideas which ensue do point to a curosity concerning, the ultimate proof of itself.


Sammi Na Boodie ()

Amen-Moses

Put this in another way, why did the billions of non-replicating life forms not leave descendents?

Pretty obvious answer dontcha think?

If only one out of trillions of primordial "lives" resulted in replication from pure chance then that is the one which started the whole ball rolling so to speak.

(it also helps that out of all possible molecular strategies RNA is smack bang in the middle of the most stable set, as soon as somethimng even aproximately similar to modern RNA occured, natural selection would act to drive any mutations toward an optimum "peak" within the set)

Amen-Moses

DNAunion

DNAunion: Reproduction is the MAIN "purpose" of all life; but it is not the only one (at least for higher animals, such as us).

DNAunion: What, you mean after I reproduced? I already addressed that: see the second part of my answer.

This is getting too philosophical. It's pretty simple: according to science (biology), the primary function ("purpose") of all life - bacteria, diatoms, plants, yeast, frogs, tapeworms, rabbits, humans, etc. - is to reproduce. If an organism is able to worry about what its second "purpose" in life is, it should count itself extremely lucky.

Zentraedi

If our only purpose was to reproduce, then why all the extra body parts? What exactly is needed to reproduce? Couldn't we all just be a penis or vagina sloshing around, although some people do stay on this level there whole life lol. Surely, there is more then just to reproduce, or whats with all the variety? Are we all just fooling ourselves that we have a purpose other then to reproduce? If so, then why are we still here? That purpose is to lame to contemplate. I do see one direction we are headed. We are attempting to become what many in the past have come to worship. Why else would you worship a god? You worship something you believe to be greater than yourself, as a dog would its master. God possesses everything we strive for. As a dog would to become a human, a human would to become a god. Gods probably do exist, and one day we might be one, but probably not the first. A guess, our purpose to life is to become the form of god, everything points to it. Now what exactly is god remains to be seen.

sourdough

b/c the conditions for life were exactly right at that time on this planet.

Bob K

Could unstable atoms with their natural tendencies towards stability cause increasingly complex molecules which could have developed the ability to reproduce themselves?

Take an intuitive ride with me through a gedankenexperiment/thought experiment to determine what might be the causation of life and reproduction.

We know that atoms are stable or unstable.

Stable atoms are characterized by a balance between the number of electrons and the number of protons.

Unstable atoms are called ions, and are characterized by (A) a deficiency of electrons, not enough electrons, or (B) an excess of electrons, too many electrons.

Is it possible that the imbalance of electrons which causes the difference between stable and unstable atoms is the cause of causes, the cause of movement?

Stable atoms act as if they have desires to be and to remain stable. They do not readily give up their electrons, requiring energy from an external source to do so.

Unstable atoms act as if they have desires to become stable, and when they are in proximity to sources of electrons or potential dumping grounds for excess electrons we observe movement, the movement of atoms towards or away from each other, and the exchange of electrons, all this caused by the impulse for balance/stability.

When in close enough proximity to other atoms, Type A ions, unstable atoms with a deficiency of electrons, attempt to gain additional electrons for the purpose of becoming stable, ‘stealing’ electrons from other atoms, as if they are atomic thieves, or ‘seducing’ electrons from other atoms, as if they are atomic Mae Wests, unless the other atoms are Type-B ions, with excessive electrons, willing to get rid of excessive electrons, in which case we observe an almost female-male exchange of electrons, in a kind of atomic romance.

Thus, with Type A ions we observe movement for additional electrons; once balanced, we do not observe movement to gain additional electrons or to give up electrons.

Type B ions, unstable atoms with an excess of atoms, attempt to get rid of excess electrons for the purpose of becoming stable, forcing their electrons onto other atoms, as if they are atomic rapists, unless the other atoms are themselves Type-A ions, in which case we observe an almost male-female exchange of electrons.

Thus, with Type B ions we observe movement for getting rid of excessive electrons; once balanced, we do not observe movement to get rid of other electrons or to gain additional electrons.

Thus, in the difference between stable and unstable atoms, we observe movement, the cause of movement, and, thus, the cause of causes, the cause of causation, the source of causation.

In some cases, ions are not successful in either stealing electrons needed for balance and stability or in getting rid of electrons and thus establishing balance/stability; instead, they ‘share’ electrons with other atoms, causing a recurring exchange of electrons, and such exchanges cannot be considered totally balanced nor totally unbalanced, yet, if other sources of electrons were available, then electrons would be secured by some atoms which then achieve balance or electrons would be disposed by other atoms which then achieve balance/stability.

As atoms ‘share’ electrons with other atoms, complex structures begin to develop, molecules, some of which may be stable, some of which may be unstable.

As more complex molecules develop, their stability/instability ratios may cause a ‘need’ or ‘desire’ for cloning, or reproduction, and, thus, the first reproducing molecule complexes may develop, perhaps what we call life forms.

Then cells, organs, and, finally, organisms.

Thus, from unstable atoms interacting with other atoms in a search for stability, life could have evolved as molecular complexity reached a point wherein stability was achieved through the securing of food, the conversion of food to energy, the elimination of wastes, and reproduction, all characteristics shared by all life forms.

We observe that individual organisms appear to be in service of the continuance of the life inherent in their genes, as if organisms are the worker bees who serve queens who are their genes, for although they do not continue on as individual organisms they can create the opportunities for their genes to continue on, and this requires reproduction.

I am a musician. In music we find harmonies--chords--which are unstable and prompt us to resolve them to stable chords. Dominant seventh chords, such as a G7, are unstable, restless chords, which can be resolved to stable chords such as major triads, such as a C major triad. Thus, in the difference between unstable chords and stable chords we have musical movement somewhat analogous to atomic movement, as exemplified by the G7 dominant seventh chord resolving nicely to a C major triad.

Dominant seventh chords prompt in many listeners a tension and a desire for a resolution to a stable chord as a release of tension. In general, at the end of a song or an arrangement of a song musicians do not leave a restless/unstable chord unresolved. An old musician’s joke describes the piano player who either had a strong impulse for a personal physiological reorganization or perhaps was prompted to check out Fresh Talent, a serious romantic possibility, and who therefore neglected to resolve a G7 chord, got up from the piano, and was immediately shot by listeners who could not tolerate the tension generated by the unresolved G7 chord.

Among humans, we have desires for people/things/events and fears of people/things/events, thus we observe movement of people towards desirable people/things/events as approach behavior caused/motivated by desires and we observe movement of people away from undesirable/feared people/things/events as avoidance behavior caused/motivated by fears. We are therefore subject to the same tension->release instability->stability cause of movement we find in atoms and molecules. [Freud noted this long ago.]

Life stands as an example of matter/energy which resists the increase of entropy. There may exist other forms of matter/energy which show an increase in complexity and, therefore, a decrease in entropy, which may give us reason to hope that the universe will not become a space in which all matter/energy has reached a state of ultimate stability because unstable atoms have found ways and means of achieving tolerable stability, if not actual stability, in which all protons are balanced by all electrons and atomic movement is no longer needed, necessary or possible.

For those of you who are motivated to instantly reject any kind of thoughts which appear to contradict whatever theories of physics you champion, remember that I have specified what are my premises, the facts that we observe atoms to be stable and unstable, and that unstable atoms exchange electrons with other atoms and can develop complex clusters of atoms, molecules, and from these observations I have concluded that life could have evolved from the natural tendencies of atoms to move to achieve stability, with reproduction being necessary for the continuation of the tenuous stability of genes.

I.e., I have specified the premises which lead to my conclusions.

If you want to challenge a conclusion, then you ought to do so by challenging the premises which lead to the conclusion.

Then answer this question: Could unstable atoms with their natural tendencies towards stability cause increasingly complex molecules which could have developed the ability to reproduce themselves?

DNAunion

DNAunion: There is nothing unstable about a G7 chord itself. We humans have come to expect a C major chord after a G7: it is the trained "human ear", not the notes themselves, that seeks resolution. Nature has no need or desire of resolving G7 into C major. So, to keep things parallel, are you proposing that some observers wanted atoms to form the molecules of life? If not, how does the music thingy fit in to OOL?

Also, some forms of music, such as jazz and "fusion", LEAVE the tension: the final chord is sometimes a wild juxtaposition of two chords (ever listen to Bill Chase or Maynard Ferguson?). Ears that are trained to listen to such music do NOT want the "tension" resolved - that would ruin the song, turning something complex and deep into something simple and trivial.

Bob K

DNAunion:The G7 chord, any dominant seventh chord, built upon the fifth scale degree of a major scale, is inherently unstable due to the presence of the augmented fourth/diminished fifth [lowered fifth] interval [the tri-tone, the "devil in music"] which prompts the ear to 'want' a resolution by half-steps to a major chord built upon the first scale degree. The tension creates the instability; the instability IS the tension.

If composers/arrangers want the tension created by an unresolved dominant seventh, that's part of their conception of the art of music, nothing wrong with that, but, nevertheless, the tension remains. Blues songs, for example, are often ended with an unresolved dominant seventh chord.

Your own words reveal your awareness of the presence of the tension I described.

I am not proposing that some observers 'wanted' atoms to form the molecules of life.

I AM describing the cause of causes, the cause of movement in matter/energy, the tendencies of ions to act to achieve stability and prompt the development of molecules and, eventually, complexes of molecules which reproduce and produce what we now call life forms.

Wyz_sub10

I disagree. You are working this backwards - taking an effect that is currently desireable and assuming that, as such, it is a required one.

I would also point out that such transitions are not "wanted" by all ears. I have sat and listened to Ethiopian music that sounded like noise to me (as if the notes had no connection). But as the disc played on, I began to hear similar patterns in the other songs.

Noise became music. (not music I'm crazy about, mind you, but my ear began to 'want' patterns it had not previously been exposed to)

Bob K

Wyz_sub10:In my studies of the history of music, western music, where initially composers dealt with the sounds with no general/generic rules of chord progressions and voice leading eventually individuals began to notice that as a general rule the most satisfying chord progressions involved resolutions of tension chords, unstable chords, such as dominant sevenths, to stable chords, chords of resolution, and, thus, general/generic rules of chord progressions/voice leading began to be developed, including the resolution of dominant seventh chords, to major triads, minor triads, etc.

If you study music theory and particularly four part traditional harmony (church hymns are examples) as well as counterpoint (Bach fugues are examples), you will find rules that describe chord progressions and voice leading in which the strongest resolution of a V7 chord is to a I chord [because of the double half-step resolution of the V7 tri-tone to the root and third of the I chord], a weaker resolution being to a Im or a VIm chord [because the double half-step resolutions/voice leading does not happen V7->Im or V7->VIm]. I.e., out of all the possibilities for chord progressions/resolutions for a V7 chord the most desirable and therefore the most preferred were found to be, in order of preference I, Im, VIm. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to conclude that there may very well be a physical reason for the development of the rules for resolution of V7 chords.

Thus, a V7 chord remains a tension chord/unstable chord for which the best resolution is still a I chord in most musical circumstances in western music (western music as contrasted with eastern music, not western music as in country and western music).