Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 06-20-2003, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arken
I understand their motives. I wasn't claiming that they were otherwise. I still say that the comment itself is a bit reactionary and over the top.

The quote was from the article. You have admitted that the motives of the proponents are to ban all abortions. What is wrong with the quote?

Quote:

I am not anti-abortion in any way and have attended many a pro-choice rally, but I can make a wholly-secular anti-abortion argument for you:

A fetus has 46 chromosomes and shares 99.99% of its DNA with all other humans. Therefore, it is human. If it is human, it is entitled to basic human rights which include the right to not be killed.

The cells in my liver have 46 chromosomes and share 100% of my DNA with other humans. Does that make my liver a separate human, entitled to basic human rights?

That's one of the reasons this argument doesn't get very far with people who aren't predisposed to think abortion is murder.

I am being a bit contentious here because I recently attended a debate on the question. The anti-abortion debater was a Christian but refused to base his case on the Bible or Christian doctrine (for obvious reasons.) He constructed a "scientific" proof that life begins at conception (which is the implication of your argument that human chromosomes = human). His science was bogus from start to finish, but his intent was clearly to appeal to secular moralists. These anti-abortionists are very like creationists, and use some of the same arguments.

Quote:

Sure, but just because all sorts of religious organizations support something shouldn't automatically make it bad. Anti-war movements are often supported in large part by religious organizations. Does this mean that all atheists should never follow anti-war movements?

I am the last person you will ever find saying that there should be less of a separation between church and state. In fact, I think there is far from enough. But am I going to object to something just because religious groups are for it? No. That's just as bad as blind faith in my opinion.

I am not arguing that everything religious is bad. (Religious groups are likely to support war, and many pacifists through history have been non-believers, Bertrand Russell for example.) But you have to find a secular reason for what you do. I am arguing that the secular reasons to oppose abortion, especially early abortions, do not stand up to scrutiny, and many of the "secular" reasons are covert arguments from a religious perspective.

Shake · 06-20-2003, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arken
Have all religions dropped at that rate or just Christianity? I remembered reading that Islam is on the increase.

It is, but their overall numbers are much lower than Xianity's. In the same period, the number saying they have no religion (includes atheists, agnostics, humanists, freethinkers, and probably some theists who just hate organized religion, etc.) has increased dramatically and is estimated at roughly 30 million Americans! (various sources say between 29M-30M)

Elora · 06-20-2003, 02:37 PM

Quote:

My opinion is that American public schools are filled to the brim with conservative Christians. There are a few liberals here and there (although the numbers vary depending on the state), but American education is enforcing conservative ideas into teenagers. I remember one year when my Health teacher started praising God in the middle of the class. I could (and I should) have gotten her fired for that.

I'm not sure about that. The vast majority of my own teachers may not have been liberal, but they certainly refrained from religious proselytizing, and didn't balk at showing the darker moments in the history of religion. And plenty of schools still have sex ed, and obey the laws against school prayer.

Of course, whether you're right or I am won't stop conservatives from repeating their "all public college students and professors are raving liberals" mantra.

unregistered_user_1 · 06-20-2003, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SecularFuture
VICTORY IN FLORIDA TEXTBOOK BATTLE
"For the past year Creation Science Evangelism [CSE] has been engaged a battle to have the Florida Department of Education enforce the provisions of Chapter 1006, Florida Statutes, which requires that instructional materials utilized in the public school system in Florida contain accurate information. CSE has invested a great deal of time and resources in this campaign and we are pleased to announce that God, in his faithfulness, has granted a victory in this battle.

We were notified by the Department of Education, that Glencoe/McGraw-Hill has admitted the errors contained in their text books Biology: The Dynamics of Life (1999) and Biology: The Living Systems (1998), and have taken the necessary steps to rectify the errors in those textbooks. We give the glory and praise to the Lord for allowing us to combat the evils of evolution through CSE and are so grateful for His loving faithfulness as we proclaim the truth of Creator and creation. In the next few weeks we will be posting the state-by-state laws for opting you child out of classes and the laws and procedures for challenging errors in the textbooks in your state on the CSE website.

Thank you for your continued prayerful and financial support of this ministry."

---- http://www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=victories

The hell?! THESE people are concerend about "errors in texts". Sheeeit. Has anyone ever given the Dept of Education any of the stuff that shows the errors in Hovinds's stuff? ex) the AIG article showing arguments YEC's shouldn't use anymore, or the "300 creationist lies" index?

How do you get in touch with the Dept to give them this stuff?

SecularFuture · 06-22-2003, 01:11 PM

The fundies have infested the dictionary also!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

sci�ence (n.)

1a) The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.

1b) Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.

1c) Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.

2) Methodological activity, discipline, or study: I've got packing a suitcase down to a science.

3) An activity that appears to require study and method: the science of purchasing.

4) Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.

5) Science Christian Science.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=science

SecularFuture · 06-22-2003, 01:14 PM

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=evolution

Please take notice of the "Answers in Creation" link at the top of this site.

SecularFuture · 06-22-2003, 01:28 PM

conkermaniac

Quote:

�Actually, we won't need to do anything to ensure that secularism is the future of the Western world (or America, at least). Christianity will undo itself. �

However --- we need to make sure that theistic religion continues to go in the direction that it is going now. Down, back into the pits of mythology land. Without our help, theistic religion may start to make a come back, and we definitely don�t want that to happen. We need more critical thinking in this world. We don�t need anymore damn fundies!

Quote:

� From 1990 to 2001, the percentage of people who identified themseves as Christians dropped by a staggering 9%!�

Not good enough. We need to get that number up to at least 80%!

And where are your references for this information?

Jewel · 06-22-2003, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SecularFuture
[And where are your references for this information?

I believe it is a reference to the 2001 ARIS study :

Quote:

76.5% (159 million) of Americans identify themselves as Christian. This is a major slide from 86.2% in 1990. Identification with Christianity has suffered a loss of 9.7 percentage points in 11 years -- about 0.9 percentage points per year. This decline is identical to that observed in Canada between 1981 and 2001. If this trend continues, then by about the year 2042, non-Christians will outnumber the Christians in the U.S.

Toto · 06-22-2003, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SecularFuture
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=evolution

Please take notice of the "Answers in Creation" link at the top of this site.

It's a rotating ad, so it doesn't always come up. But when it does, it's because they paid for it.

Do you think that dictionary.com would be amenable to kicking creationist advertising off their site? Would the creationists have a legal case?

Does talkorigins have an avertising budget?

RufusAtticus · 06-22-2003, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SecularFuture
The fundies have infested the dictionary also!

No they haven't. From M-W.com, which is better annotated that dictionary.com: "science . . . 5 capitalized : CHRISTIAN SCIENCE"

Main Entry: Christian Science
Function: noun
Date: circa 1867
: a religion founded by Mary Baker Eddy in 1866 that was organized under the official name of the Church of Christ, Scientist, that derives its teachings from the Scriptures as understood by its adherents, and that includes a practice of spiritual healing based on the teaching that cause and effect are mental and that sin, sickness, and death will be destroyed by a full understanding of the divine principle of Jesus's teaching and healing

Christian Scientists are not fundies or that conservative from what I understand. In fact, their ideas of spiritual healing are probably what we'd think of as "Christian, new-age."

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06-22-2003, 01:11 PM	#15
SecularFuture Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 3,866	The fundies have infested the dictionary also! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ sci�ence (n.) 1a) The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena. 1b) Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena. 1c) Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study. 2) Methodological activity, discipline, or study: I've got packing a suitcase down to a science. 3) An activity that appears to require study and method: the science of purchasing. 4) Knowledge, especially that gained through experience. 5) Science Christian Science. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=science

06-22-2003, 01:14 PM	#16
SecularFuture Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 3,866	http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=evolution Please take notice of the "Answers in Creation" link at the top of this site.

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