Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Yellum Notnef · 05-06-2003, 11:02 AM

All hail the magical unmeltable snowflakes who live on the sun!

Who will help me spread their gospel?

I'm delirious with joy.

Bree · 05-06-2003, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Badfish
These are the dead that never heard the gospel, rejected it, or never heard it to God's or the person's satisfaction. IMO.

Emphasis mine, of course. How is that fair? People who never got the opportunity to choose between salvation and damnation automatically get the shit end of the stick?

Doesn't sound very loving to me.

As far as your "we're talking salvation, not rewards" isn't it clear that salvation is the reward mentioned in the Scripture? Or perhaps no? Look at II Corinthians again:

Quote:

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be paid back according to what he has done while in the body, whether good or evil."

It's obvious that the author is talking about salvation. We are standing before the judgement seat - that is, prior to entering the pearly gates. Christ is looking through the Book of Life and deciding whether or not you'll be admitted.

Badfish · 05-06-2003, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hezekiah jones
Originally posted by Badfish
If your anus causes you displeasure then you will not retain you anus.

So only people whose anuses did not cause them displeasure will bring their anuses to paradise.

And here I thought the OP was silly.

You are the original poster.

It was a joke, we will probably not have anuses, why would we need them? We will supercede the need for food or sexual pleasure, therefore we won't need anuses or genitals.

hezekiah jones · 05-06-2003, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by Badfish
You are the original poster.

The question is necessarily silly because it's a question derived from the Bible, and the Bible is silly.

Nevertheless my logic is unimpeachable, and in that sense, it's a very serious question.

Bree · 05-06-2003, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Badfish
Although this raises the question about Satan rebelling.

Quote:

Originally posted by hezekiah jones
Hey - get your own thread.

Ask, and ye shall receive: If you can't get kicked out of Heaven, then what happened to Satan?

hezekiah jones · 05-06-2003, 11:07 AM

Aha! Thanks Bree, fellow Cheeselander.

Badfish · 05-06-2003, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bree
[COLOR=indigo]Emphasis mine, of course. How is that fair? People who never got the opportunity to choose between salvation and damnation automatically get the shit end of the stick?

Doesn't sound very loving to me.

No, you answered your own question Bree with the scripture you posted, they were raised and judged according to their works, that makes it perfectly fair, the scripture isn't saying that they are damned.

"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. Then books were opened, and another book was opened�the book of life. So the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds." [Revelations 20:12]

Quote:

As far as your "we're talking salvation, not rewards" isn't it clear that salvation is the reward mentioned in the Scripture? Or perhaps no?

Salvation is a gift that allows you entrance into heaven, rewards are based on your actions after you have been admitted into heaven.

Quote:

It's obvious that the author is talking about salvation. We are standing before the judgement seat - that is, prior to entering the pearly gates. Christ is looking through the Book of Life and deciding whether or not you'll be admitted.

He is judging the dead in faith, or those that didn't have faith, because they couldn't accept the gift of salvation, they are justly judged according to their hearts and works.

Bree · 05-06-2003, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Badfish
No, you answered your own question Bree with the scripture you posted, they were raised and judged according to their works, that makes it perfectly fair, the scripture isn't saying that they are damned.

What happens if the dead (who didn't get the chance to hear the Gospel and for some strange, inexplicable reason are still being judged) don't measure up? You say they have been raised and are now being judged - what happens if Jesus doesn't think their works are worthy of Heaven? Obviously this is going to happen, otherwise Jesus would just give them a Get Out Of Hell Free card and bypass all this judgement nonsense.

Celsus · 05-06-2003, 11:12 AM

Hello Badfish,

Quote:

Originally posted by Badfish
Re: Jeremiah: These are rewards and not a basis for salvation.

Actually, any interpretation raises all sorts of problems--if it refers to life on earth, then you have the familiar problems with theodicy. (care to debate that one?) If it refers to heaven (and it is doubtful that Jeremiah would have known what heaven is, other than the sky), then it supports the "works" interpretation.

Quote:

Re: 2 Corinthians: Same here, rewards, not salvation. There will be some that are granted salvation even if their works were not the greatest, maybe the least of the saved will be janitor or something.

Wrong again. Christian theology tries to argue that heaven will be a place of perfect happiness. In other words, the degree of the reward is meaningless if all recipients still end up with perfect happiness (or are there different levels of heaven?). So it can only refer to a meaningful distinction, and the only meaningful distinction would be heaven and hell.

Quote:

Re: James: Once you are saved and practice faith, you are compelled to do good works in the name of Christ, IOW, if you proclaim to have faith, yet live contrary to God's word or behave like an unsaved person, then your faith is dead.

So works are required, yes?

Quote:

Re: Revelations: These are the dead that never heard the gospel, rejected it, or never heard it to God's or the person's satisfaction. IMO

Heh heh. Are you sure you know your Bible? Because it doesn't sound like it to me. Did you notice Revelations 20:15?

Quote:

Re: 1 Timothy: I don't what you mean by this one. It is not a statement of salvation, it is a statement of a byproduct as result of grace.

It means what it says. Saved through childbearing? Either contradictory, or at least misogynistic. Go figure.

Joel

hezekiah jones · 05-06-2003, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by Badfish
It was a joke, we will probably not have anuses, why would we need them? We will supercede the need for food or sexual pleasure, therefore we won't need anuses or genitals.

Then why does God need genitals?

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05-06-2003, 11:02 AM	#21
Yellum Notnef Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Gone Posts: 4,676	All hail the magical unmeltable snowflakes who live on the sun! Who will help me spread their gospel? I'm delirious with joy.

05-06-2003, 11:05 AM	#24
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	Originally posted by Badfish You are the original poster. The question is necessarily silly because it's a question derived from the Bible, and the Bible is silly. Nevertheless my logic is unimpeachable, and in that sense, it's a very serious question.

05-06-2003, 11:07 AM	#26
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	Aha! Thanks Bree, fellow Cheeselander.

05-06-2003, 11:28 AM	#30
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	Originally posted by Badfish It was a joke, we will probably not have anuses, why would we need them? We will supercede the need for food or sexual pleasure, therefore we won't need anuses or genitals. Then why does God need genitals?

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