ForeverSeeking

The Christian "God" is portrayed as:

"All knowing, all powerful, and all present"

Can God be those things AND be good?

If God is omniscient, then God knows that children will die senselessly every day. God knows that women die in childbirth due to bodies not proportioned for childbirth, that millions starve to death in impoverished countries, that whales beach and kill themselves for no reason, that millions are born with no ability to care for themselves, speak, hear or even see, and millions have been born for centuries who die without ever having a single rational thought. If God really knows these things, why does God allow them to occur? If God is all-powerful, then why doesn’t God stop the “evil” that is in this world? Is God actually capable of preventing these things? This brings us to two other characteristics mentioned: omnipresence, and omniscience. If God has the ability to be at every point in “time” at once, then obviously God is “aware” of all things. In this case, God surely is aware of forthcoming issues that would wreak havoc for no apparent reason, or the related problems we mentioned earlier. In such a case, then it must be impossible to consider this God anything but malignant. How could a God capable of all things, and knowing all things, not intervene in cases of obvious need? That may be the very issue at hand. If God has all of these character traits, then it may not be possible for God to act. It may be completely out of God’s control to act on something that God has already determined. Those very traits that make God “great” may be God’s own limitations, as much as they are God’s tools. If God is all-powerful, then can God change the future? I think that may go against the concept of “omniscience and omnipresence.” Can God create something as powerful as God, such as Satan? That may be a contradiction of the term “omnipotence.” Can God allow humanity to have free will? That may be a contradiction of the term “omniscience.” I recall this intriguing saying to ponder:

"If God is omnipotent, Then God can make a rock that he/she cannot move. If God is omnipotent, then God cannot make a rock that he/she cannot move. Hence, God is not Omnipotent."

Webster defines morality as: “of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior.” If one is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-present, can the concept of morality or immorality truly apply to that being? What I mean by that statement is that a being who has these characteristics would develop the concept of morality, not be defined by it. For example, many would say that the god of the Bible defines morality. I have come to disagree with this statement. That would put that god in a place of submission to a higher authority…morality itself. God’s actions would then be judged by this statute, and then we would have no origin for that statute itself. It would appear then, that our morality has evolved along with every other aspect of civilization. If this is true, then how does one determine that God is “good?” Now we must define the term “good.” Webster defines “good” as “(1) : VIRTUOUS, RIGHT, COMMENDABLE (2) : KIND, BENEVOLENT.” These are perfect words to describe “good” most would agree, but we must ask what the basis for these definitive words is. In all truth, we would have to agree that the basis is on what we have determined as a society, not what is predetermined by another being which we label as “good.” According to Christian scripture, God is good...and God is evil. Isaiah 45:7 says, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (KJV) You see then, morality can not be above this concept of God, which is what one is implying by stating that God is “good,” and men or the devil or whomever is “evil.” God, in this context, must then be the embodiment of both good and evil. He created man, beasts, plants and even Satan. The creation, or evolution, of Satan is a common discussion for theists, but is out of our scope for this piece. I will only lightly touch on this thought process. In the context of this essay, one must refer to our understanding of the meaning of the three “O’s” to grasp the idea that God did truly “create” Satan. At any rate, what does the statement “God is good” even mean? What it actually implies is that "good" is anything God does, no matter how caring, kind, obscene or vicious. This is unacceptable. Can we honestly consider many of the things the Christian God has been said to have done to be “good” things? So one must conclude that the statement “God is good” in this context is unfounded, or at best, disturbing. Therefore we must adhere to the concept that our society's “moral code,” if you will, must be the product of society itself. We as people must determine what is best for that society. We must not hinder personal practices that do not affect the rest of the social structure simply because something such as the Christian bible may find it unacceptable. In fact, that is a sign of an immature and inhumane social structure. Something such as the Christian bible's principles can not determine morality, as has been proposed, for it is innately “immoral” (based on the true test of morality that I have proposed).

In conclusion, if God is all the characteristics we first brought forth, then what is God doing with them? Can these three traits coexist in a being according to our own understanding? Let’s recap: God already knows the outcome of the universe (omniscience), for God determined its purpose and outcome (omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience). God is also at all points in what we call "time," so God is aware of all that has, and will occur (omnipresence). God can actually change the future (omnipotence), according to our view, but it can not truly be considered an actual change considering God knows the “true” future long beforehand, being preexistant in God’s plan (omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience). Therefore, God is powerful enough to do all things (omnipresence), but in truth is not powerful enough to discount the other characteristics God has, and therefore is bound helpless to God’s own predetermined laws, plan, and outcome, which God already created and knows the result thereof (omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence).

So the question really is....can those traits even feasibly coexist?

Sojourner553

Your post is really a restatement of the Philosopher's Paradox on the Nature of God

ie,

1) God is an all powerful being.
2) God is all good.
3) Terrible things happen in this world


The answer is that all religions, although they usually don't come out and admit it, have compromised on one of the above premises in developing (inventing) their doctrines, ie either

1) God is not really all powerful [which is why bad things happen]
2) God is not necessarily all good

or

3) evil is just an appearance, there is a greater good, or (my favorite) "there are some things we can never understand".


For more discussion see:

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/GOD.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/GOD.TXT</a>

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html</a>
(Section VI, Chapter 2)

Sojourner

[ August 17, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

Your.Master

I am an atheist, not a theist. I have heard the philosopher's paradox before and no good answers. However, the other evidence, I think is flawed, and I intend to throw this bone to theists in the name of thought.

If God is omnipotent, Then God can make a rock that he/she cannot move. If God is omnipotent, then God cannot make a rock that he/she cannot move. Hence, God is not Omnipotent.

The problem here is that you are stating something he must be able to do, and then saying that such a thing cannot exist, but you are not following whether such a thing could exist when it is done.

Let me explain.

The creation of a rock that God himself cannot move, is, by it's very nature, a limit. God cannot make a rock that he cannot move but does not limit him, because that is a contradiction that is stupid and meaningless. Make a limit without making a limit. Make a chair that is not a chair. These things are semantic absurdities, not concepts. However, the immobile rock is a concept.

In creating the immobile rock, God limits his own power. In essence, the creation of this rock is possible, but after he creates this rock God is NO LONGER OMNIPOTENT. It is a non-saying to say that God should be able to make a rock that he himself cannot move without stripping himself of his omnipotence, yet another semantic absurdity: make a limit with no limits.

No rock exists that God cannot move. This rock can exist, but only at a time when God is no longer omnipotent, just demopotent. There is no logical problem with a demopotent God being unable to move a rock.

That's something I came up with when I was bored in math class . I went "Wow...dang. I really thought I had a proof pegged there. Well, back to Agnostic Atheism".

The other way you could look at it is that God is similar to a computer programmer, who is all-powerful as far as his programs are concerned but cannot possibly make something that he himself cannot unmake, because he's a programmer, omnipotent in his creation but not in his own existence. However, I don't think any Theist believes that God is not omnipotent on his home "plane" of existence, therefore, my first argument catches it.