[After some post that aren’t worth our time.]
DP, posted September 14, 2002 12:09 PM
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Well, Bob was not willing, so onward atheist and agnostic solders once more into the breech.
Reliable statistics on the population of the world at the time of the great flood are hard to come by after all, so Hitler, Stalin, and Mao may have had a bigger body count. God was either the biggest mass murderer of all time, or at the least the most efficient mass murderer of all time, or both, if he is real. After all he supposedly wiped out the entire human race except one family, mass murder doesn’t get much more efficient than that, does it? As an example of what not to do when faced with people who aren’t doing what you want them to do, well you can't beat God as the worst example of all can you? After all this kind, benevolent, just, omnipotent God of yours had every imaginable option available to him to change the behavior of his "Flock," and he chose the worst option he had, mass murder when things didn't go his way. What an example to set for his followers! And judging from the way some of his followers have followed his example in their own attempts to murder their way to power over the millenniums, they got the message. It's OK to commit mass murder, as long as you're doing it in the name of God and for the right religion! Now which one is the right religion? Is it Islam? No must be Christianity, or perhaps it's Judaism. Damn! Makes my head hurt trying to figure which one is the real religion of Bob…Uh God.
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FS: If you don’t have reliable data, you have no reliable claims. Tho it is interesting how you blithely skip over your fellow Atheists’ mass murders. What do Atheists do when people don’t do what Atheists want them to? Marginalize them, exclude them from having a voice in their government and demonize them; some have even gone so far as killing them – here, right in the U.S. On the other hand, the U.S. governments (state and Federal) have executed criminal for their crimes. I guess you are calling the entire American population supporters of genocide. You no doubt support having Ted Bundy (
http://www.crimelibrary.com/bundy/attack.htm) go free.
God is our authority, yes. We are to do as He instructed, yes. God commands us not to murder, thus we must obey Him. Atheists have no such commandment. You believe that If a Christian murders, it is some how the fault of his religion, but If an Atheist murders it is only his own fault. That is the absurdity of your rationalizations. Your argument FOR mass murder only works if you’re an Atheist.
God tells us to do nothing to those who refuse to follow Him; both Mark 6:10-13 and Luke 9:51-56 state this explicitly. Atheists have no such command against murder. If an Atheist can rationalize it, they can do it. And just as the “big lie” is spread by repeating it, so you are successfully spreading your lies about Christianity by repeating them on this forum.
What would you do with those committing horrendous crimes? The options you gave failed to be viable. Please, try again.
Atheists operate on their own authority. They decide what is right. If they decide mass-murder is right, then it is. If they decide that infanticide is right, then it is. If they decide certain patients do not need to be alive or, as one Atheist on this thread put it: if no one would miss them, they can be killed. If there is no deity, then all is permissible.
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Anyway Meeee, …
If all you are going to do is preach, your posts will be moved, and you will reap what you sow in RR&P. Nice to have you on board, and good luck.
David
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Heal thy self, DP.
DP, posted September 21, 2002 08:00 PM
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FS, what Immanuel Kant and Vorkosigan said above, as well as what everyone else said on this thread to show you the errors of your thinking. We work with logic and common sense in reaching our opinions on the non-existence of God and the evil that religion has done and will do to humanity. You have a nice pair of rose-colored glasses there, and as I have pointed out before, opinions based on superstition and belief in non-existent beings will never win you an argument here. But you and Meeee keep this thread alive for all the lurkers to ponder, so in a way you are doing us a favor by allowing us to demolish your arguments over and over again. Keep trying, maybe you can find the Holy Grail argument that shows us the error of our thinking. Maybe not. My money is on us atheists/agnostics. Thank you for your time.
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DP, you and other Atheists use ignorance, prejudice and deceit. Look at what Vork claimed:
Vorkosigan, December 7, 2002 12:49 AM
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Orwell was criticizing Christian Britain; the Ministry of Truth is the BBC. Don't you know anything at all?
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FS: I know my Isaac Asimov!
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…, Orwell wrote “Animal Farm” which was a satire of the Russian Revolution and what followed,…”
That book [“1984”] described society as a vast worldwide extension of Stalinist Russia in the 1930s,…
Isaac Asimov, “1984,” from Asimov on Science Fiction
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Was Vorky lying or just ignorant? Nice of Atheists to accuse Christians of not doing their research, but when an Atheist fails to, it’s all, “ssshhhhh, do not criticize a fellow Atheist!” I ask again: where is your dissention with Vorky’s falsehoods.
DP, posted September 30, 2002 04:35 PM
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FS can't get over the fact that atheism DOES NOT equal communism, fascism or any other type of authoritarianism political structure. It is just the NON BELIEF OF A GOD (S), PERIOD. Religion on the other hand IS ALWAYS AUTHORITARIAN IN STRUCTURE! Hey, when you have the ultimate authority, God, in charge of religion, how can it be anything else? The problem is that the ultimate authority, God, isn't around (Well doesn’t exist really, but that's another thread.) to wield his authority, so we get all these religious leaders of all the religions happy to step in, pick up the mantle of power, and let us all know God's will, as strained through their brains. And what have we to show for this? War, religious persecution, overpopulation, and a host of other ills brought to us by the religious fanatics who have had control over man for most of our history. Time to move out of the dark ages FS, and stop the repetition of the evil done in the name of God and religion, of which 9/11 is just the latest example. We can keep the good stuff, the charity work, the hospitals etc, but we need to dump the dangerous junk they also give us, and remove the power religions wield over so many people. The only way to do this is through the means you see right here, intellectual persuasion. Having said that, lets throw in a couple of my favorite posts on this thread. Bon Appetite!
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FS:
Calm yourself, DP. You warped into RANT mode again. Too bad I can’t send you over to RR&P as you do to others.
Fascism is more popular with Atheist controlled states than it is with Christian controlled states. I repeat the fact again: every Atheist controlled nation that ever existed (to my knowledge) has been fascist. Deal with it.
Again you are twisting the truth until it metaphorically screams in pain. Those who are in power who abuse that power can find no protection from God. You talk about “God's will, as strained through their brains,” but refuse to acknowledge the situation is no different for Atheists. Right and wrong are likewise strained thru Atheists’ brains, but they have no guide but their own animal instincts. I have read the writings of many Atheists, they give only lip service to “intellectual persuasion,” unless they are using it for an euphemism for torture.
Let us examin a small part of your “logic.” Please refer to:
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DP, posted September 21, 2002 08:00 PM
We work with logic and common sense in reaching our opinions on the non-existence of God
and
DP, posted September 30, 2002 04:35 PM
It is just the NON BELIEF OF A GOD (S), PERIOD.
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AND:
David Payne posted February 14, 2002 09:36 PM
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Why I Fear Religion/evolving beyond religion
In the year 2000 there were about one billion people (912.3 million) who were atheist, agnostic or nonreligious. (according to Encyclopedia Britannica Book of the Year.)
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Where you expressly made reference to
“atheist, agnostic or nonreligious.” Expressly separating Atheist from non-religious; meaning Atheism IS A RELIGION!
Your failure is that you still don’t understand the difference between Authority and Authoritarian. “Of course, He does not impose His will upon man, the last of His works; He does not compel him, He only commands, or rather forbids, him, albeit under a severe threat.” “
The Tree of Knowledge,” Martin Buber.
Neither the Bible nor God is Authoritarian any more than the Laws in the U.S and the police who properly enforce them. Atheism supports Marxism because it is the reasoning of a man. It makes no moral judgement on Marxism. It makes no statement on what is right or wrong, preferred or not, virtuous or abominable. Atheism say only that there is no universal authority and - by rational, logical extension – man can choose whatever he wants. If Atheism is the one true faith, Marxists are right because they say they are. The previously given argument for murder being wrong:
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If killing other members of the society wasn’t deemed incorrect, then killing would become a routine event. Considering that people don’t generally like being killed, they would tend to avoid other members of the society for fear of their lives. Hence, the society would collapse. The outlaw of murder within a society is a vital component to the survival of that society.
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Under Atheism those are unsupported assumptions: that it would become a routine event, that avoiding certain members of society is a bad thing and that supporting society is necessary. “Murder” is common in many animals societies in nature, so if man is “just an animal”… It also avoids the possibility of “organized murder.” It is possible that “hitman” or assassin could become a respectable job title. This would avoid much random violence in society; no more drive-by shootings where innocent bystanders get killed, just a clean, professional “hit” (this is not my argument, but simply one used by the “Pro-drug” lobby). This idea has been explored in Science Fiction. It could also eliminate [other?] organized crime: If you don’t like a crime boss, you pay for a hit. Your premise that society would collapse if murder were legalized is unsupported at best.
In other words:
“It therefore remains for him to return the peculiarly, and most appropriately Scottish verdict ‘Not Proven.’ ”
Antony Flew, “Skeptical Inquirer”, Jul/Aug, 1995, p.5.
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Originally posted by hal9000:
>Did you guys ever see Monty Python and the Holy Grail?
>Remember the knight in the forest who gets one limb after
>another hacked off until he's balancing himself on his stubs
>still trying to fight the fight he has clearly lost. I think we found
>him, just look up above this post.
Nicely said Oolon, I’ve been waiting for FS to reply. Perhaps he’s left the building.
Zounds! I stand corrected, just before I was going to post this, FS gave us one of his best broadsides, so I’ll use a little (Hal9000) humor this time, as logic and reason have had no effect on him in the past. I’ll have to step carefully around him before he bites me on the leg, poor chap, what a brave knight he is! Here, let me give you one of your legs back to stand on! I applaud you sir, you can operate that smoke and mirrors machine with your teeth! Bravo!
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FS: Once again Atheists show their true colors: ridicule is preferred over reason.
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Now, lets see if I have this right; (A) Marxist/Fascists killed millions. (B) Marxism/fascism= Atheism, (C) Therefore atheists killed millions? Spare me FS, Marxist/Fascists killed in the name of the party, the state, for the head of the cult of personality, Hitler, Stalin etc. not in the name of atheism, period. It’s a dumb rant and it doesn’t work any more, get over it.
I do like this though, tarring me with my own brush, (or more correctly Epicurus’s brush) or at least trying to.
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FS Now, lets see if I have this right; (A) Humans killed millions. (B) Some Humans = Christian, (C) Therefore Christians killed millions? Spare me DP, Humans kill for many reasons: philosophy, money, resources, land, history, etc. not in the name of Christ, period. It’s a dumb rant and it only works with those who blindly accept you authority, get over it.
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Semi-Nice try FS, but man isn’t omnipotent is he? God on the other hand is, if your right about him, isn’t he? So we can’t control the actions of everyone, but God can, can’t he, being omnipotent and all. We do the best we can to control evil, God on the other hand, doesn’t do anything! (Of course I understand why, HE DOESN’T EXIST!) How long do you think this charade of there being a God will last? Giving you your dues, probably a long time, but he will fade from view as he has in the more civilized parts of the world, except here in the US, but 9/11 will have a profound effect on the young coming up in the US I do believe. This is the century we break free of the yolk of religion in America, Bob willing! (A little inside joke FS)
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You cannot logically use God’s actions in regards to evil to question His existence (that would be a non-sequitur), only His nature. On the other hand, if man can prevent evil and chooses not to, he is malevolent. If man cannot prevent evil, then he is impotent, and his nature is not the “basically good” as humanists claim. Since you appear to have accepted the existence of evil, accepted that man can stop evil and has failed to stop it, then it is justifiable to concluding that you are either wrong, or malevolent.
“God doesn’t do anything”? That’s an Argumentum ad ignorantum!
Hitler accused a Jewish person of torching a German government building, and used that as a pretext to begin his “final solution.” With your attempt to paint Christian with the 9/11 attack, I’m waiting for your “final solution”.
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>FS: Can you site an appropriate excuse for all the evil man has done?
There is no excuse for the evil man has done FS, and even less excuse than that for the evil supposedly done by a perfect being of unlimited power and knowledge, that’s the point.(I say supposedly because he doesn’t exist, in my view remember?)
As for your contention that Bob, uh, God gave us free will, well there is no proof of that either, and so I will continue think free will just evolved along with us as a way to react to our world, by being able to make choices as to our survival. Choose well, survive. Choose poorly, die. You use the usual, the biblical quotes you say prove your point. Sorry, don’t think so, but you are welcome to your view. I let the readers read the material in this thread and make up their own minds. Free will baby!
I think this just about raps up this episode of the “Evil God Show.” I hope you enjoyed the show, It’s been around in one form or another for a long-time, couple thousand years or so. But we need to keep bringing it up to remind the head theists that there are plenty of people in on their little game of money and power, God’s just the shill. And being a myth and all, he’s perfect for the job, because he’s always just what you want him to be! I understand their discomfort, we’re after their jobs by golly! Plus we make them look somewhat foolish in the process, believing in myths like some medieval naves! Really!
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FS: There is no excuse for the evil man has done? Then why does mankind do it? If he was truly good at heart, wouldn’t his view of a deity reflect that?! If man can simply choose his own, benign morality, then why hasn’t it happened thru religions like Atheism? Simple: man is sinful. Mankind cannot justly rule himself because of the evil within him.
Mankind has created so much evil (you need to blame it on someone else so you can maintain your faith, and God is your favorite target)! Man is without excuse BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION! You keep accusing God of evil, yet have contradicted that statement by saying God doesn’t exist! You are proving yourself wrong. You cannot blame God for evil, and then say he does not exist because man causes all the evil.
Marx did exist. He used science, reason and logic to reach his conclusions. Dr. Singer did the same, as did Dr. Francis Crick, who said in the British journal “Nature”:
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[if] a child were considered to be legally born when two days old, it could be examined to see whether it was an 'acceptable member of human society.’
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And Ashley Montagu, who claimed, "A newborn baby is not truly human until he or she is molded by cultural influences later." And Dr. Joseph Fletcher in his book “Humanhood” that "Humans without some minimum of intelligence or mental capacity are not persons, no matter how many of these organs are active, no matter how spontaneous their living processes are." , and: “suggested that an "individual" was not truly a "person" unless he has an IQ of at least 40.”
(quotes are from “Philosophical Arguments Against Abortion” by Steven Foster)
Thus you must fearfully play your part in the “Evil Man Show.”
Your claims about the Flood have failed to be supported by anything even a TV lawyer could work with. Come up with something better, or yield the point. You are grasping at straws!
DP, posted October 01, 2002 08:11 PM
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A while back FS was complaining about how we atheists and agnostics lump all the Abrahamic religions together when it comes to the evil done by this or that religious order. Well FS, you all worship the same God, and all your religions came from the same foundation, the OT. And history shows that you can all be very bloody in the pursuit of your goal of bringing Godly enlightenment to the rest of us. Atheists and agnostics don't have anything remotely resembling this shared purpose and belief, out side of the non-belief in a God and religion, we are very diverse; most good, and some bad. When you are able to see the difference between authoritarian ideology (Communism, Fascism etc) and lack of belief in God, then you will be making some progress.
David
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DP likes that particular fallacy, it’s called quilt by association. While there is a clear connection between Christianity and Judaism, the connection between Islam and those two is false. But since you like that illogic so well: DP, you share a theological position with Marxists: Atheism; by your logic that makes you a worshipper of the same “god:” “human reasoning.” It is a god to you; nothing is superior to it and that is the same way with Marxists.
DP, posted October 05, 2002 08:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by DigitalDruid:
Amen-MOses, thanks for pointing this out. Religion and politics make an explosive mixture. The real tragedy is we seem to have to learn it in every generation - again and again.
Nicely said DD, that's one wheel we need to stop reinventing.
David
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AH, IT BEGINS!
One, DP says Christians are a threat to everybody, thus they must be marginalized. Another Atheist claimed that Christians were abused in Communist countries because they were a threat to those governing. AM just stated that allowing Christians into the political process would be dangerous. HMMMM. You’ve just proved my point about Atheists’ thinking: all religious persons are seen as a threat and must be removed from and positions of power (i.e. removed from government positions and Office): in other words you want Jim Crow laws for Christians.
Supporters of freedom you are not!
DP, posted October 25, 2002 11:37 PM
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Originally posted by Peter E Faulkner:
>Also may I comment on your stereotypical use of theists. I've found
>the term theists as somewhat conflicting, considering the wide range
>of folks and the associated beliefs/facts they can hold. For example,
>theists who worshiped the goddess Diana are/were at spiritual odds
>with God and His son Jesus, as seen in verse, therefore to lump both
>together as a collective group of theists with a similar stereotypical
>stance would be travesty of accuracy. I would suggest you be more
>specific in identifying believers with their goddess or God, by reason
>that I could deny the existence (read as atheist) of the goddess Diana.
[B]( I do refer to all forms of theistic belief and practice, and I will lump them all together. The root problem with them all is the belief in some sort of God and religion, and that removes one from the need to focus on reality and deal with it.[B] This is the problem that is going to consume the world, or at least mankind in the long (or short) run, in my opinion. Opinion by the way is what we are dealing with here, you get to give yours, I give mine, other people give theirs, and the readers decide who makes the most sense. Let me give you a tip about bible quotes here, they don't impress us at all. As the members of the atheist/agnostic side view them in much the same light as any other works of fiction, perhaps an interesting read, but in the end full of sound and fury and signifying nothing much of relevance to reality.) (My apologies to the bard.)
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So, we can justifiably “lump all forms of Atheistic “belief and practice” as well? When you claim you are allowed to commit a fallacy but other aren’t, it is called being two faced. Hello Mr. Janus.
As to your view of Bible quotes, I recognize that: you’ve made up your mind, you don’t want to be bothered by the Truth.
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Originally posted by Peter E Faulkner:
>Having done a search in verse for "terrible swift sword"
>I was unable to locate such a reference in verse.
( As far as I can recall, this was from some hymn or something from my youth when I was involved in some religion or other, Mormon or catholic, and it has no significance to this thread, so lets move on.) "God drowns everyone but Noah and his family for their "corruption". OK, what sin and corruption did the babies and little children of these people, or for that matter the animals on this planet, commit? None. "
…
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Gee, such dedication to getting the facts right.
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So, Hitler, Stalin and Mao, eat your hearts out you pikers. As to whether he was the biggest mass murderer ever, well census figures are hard to come by for that time period, so the big three may have killed more people than your God was "reported" to have dispatched. … So I do what I can to persuade people to move away from this kind of fantasy God/religion thing, and accept the fact that humanity must deal with what is real. There are many others here and throughout the world that do the same thing. We can only hope that humanity will see the light, and it won't be the light of a few hundred nukes set off by some doomsday cult/country trying to do Gods work for him by eliminating us infidels, and everyone else in the process.)
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Yes, yes, DP, don’t let the lack of facts get in you way of a good rant.
We Christians are dealing with what’s real, that is why we have hospitals, charities, etc. Yes, there are lots of others, in China, Cuba, etc. Well, we have “nukes” they have “nuke,” everybody has “nukes.” Yet we still live. The evidence does not support your hypothesis, ergo, it is wrong.
DP, posted October 28, 2002 10:54 PM
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Quote: Originally posted by Peter Edward Faulkner:
>Thanks David for your attempt to clarify your position.
>To reiterate,
>1) You know there is no God, and the related events are myths.
No Peter, I am a very strong agnostic, so I do allow for the possible existence of some sort of God. See here for an example. As far as the Abrahamic God is concerned, you can call me a strong atheist [see Philosoft below]. How about you, are you a strong atheist as far as say, the God Zeus is concerned? I’ll bet you are.
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So your Atheism is the belief that there is no deity.
[QUOTE]>1a) Accusations of mass murder are intended as serious to only
>those who have faith in God.
Yes.
>2)You know that others have faith in God, which can be potentially
>damaging to the rest of humanity.
Yes, history has shown us that every war is either about God/religion, or has them as some kind of motivational factor for one or both sides.
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He said turning a blind eye to Marxism.
>2) You endeavor to eradicate the faith of those by sound and logical persuasion.
If you mean to help free the minds of those that are held in the grip of these superstitions, yes, but I don't expect it to happen any time soon. I will be long dead before humanity is free of this kind of nonsense, but I will do what I can for now to aid the process. As do almost all here with their arguments. That is what the Sec-Web is for, a drop of reason in a pool of confusion. Drop by drop we hope to get reason into the minds of those trapped by superstition.
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Superstition –
…from Latin superstition-, superstitio, from superstit-, superstes
standing over (as witness or survivor),…
1 a : a belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation b : an irrational abject attitude of mind toward the supernatural, nature, or God resulting from superstition.
2 : a notion maintained despite evidence to the contrary.
(
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary)
I have reasons for what I believe, so my beliefs are not superstitious.
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Yes, it is defiantly up hill, but I've got news for you, all religious teachings come from religious writings, and all of them are man made. Nowhere does an example of any religious tract written directly by God's hand exist, does it? So we have been following the morality of mankind all along, in my view.
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I think that can stand alone if you take the time to think beyond the depth with which it was written.
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And you can't prove that Baal in the link I gave you above doesn’t exist either, so what? Theists believe in superstition, we don't. So we have a difference of opinion. I like logic when looking at the problems of religion, you like faith. Take this for example; God's son has been coming back for over two thousand years now, but he hasn't made it yet. What happened, did he lose his map? Did the Son of God get lost, assuming he could literally tear himself away from his father and the Holy Ghost. Can anyone believe that story? I think not, at least not logically. That's the difference between you and I.
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Prejudice! Christians have been using logic from the beginning. Paul was being very logical when he said:
1 Corinthians 15:
14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
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This is the kind of nebulas crap that theists use to justify this or that belief, stand or action. You may as well say "gobolly gook ga ga," for all the effect it will have on those with free minds. You take the bible as the word of God, I take it as the word of various unknown men. Men with an agenda, an agenda designed most likely to gain and hold power, in the name of God of course.
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Which just means that you mind is shut to the possibility that you are wrong, and that you are not a freethinker as you falsely claim!
David M. Payne, posted October 31, 2002 11:01 PM
Another useless post of DP’s.
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2. Regenerate living creatures/organisms through out the world after the flood in Noah's time
Lets see if I have this right, God kills everything on the planet, almost, for the sin of corruption that humanity alone was guilty of, and then he brings them all back to life? Well, that's interesting. I must admit it doesn’t make much sense to me, ….
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Atheists don’t care about killing plants and animals for their own purposes, but they do like using it as a excuse to attack God.
04-12-2003, 12:54 AM
Yes, we've covered this argument in depth on this thread. In brief why would an omnipotent God chose the worst choice, mass murder of almost everyone and thing, when he can chose any number of other options to correct the behavior he finds so objectionable? 
