Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Buffman · 10-03-2002, 08:27 PM

My goodness! Now all has become clear.

As I was reading the two posts immediately following mine, I was becoming increasingly nonplused. Then when I read NFLP's statement, I surrendered to being completely baffled.

I had asked how NFLP had come to have possession of the information posted. Why? Well the NFLP home location indicated California. Why would someone know what was going on in Tampa, Florida Democratic politics who lived in Cal. when someone only 75 miles east of Tampa had never seen any mention of the Jones endorsement by White? I have been following Florida politics rather closely since retiring here more than 22 years ago.

I read 4th Generation's post and burst out laughing. (Please! No offense intended to anyone.) It had never occurred to me that anyone who had read any of my other posts, or my Bio, could mistake me for a believer. However, in one sense, I am rather flattered that Sabine Grant could have interpretted my post from that mindset.

By doing so, he/she confirmed my belief that there are a huge number of Christians in this country who have finally begun to recognize what a small bunch of Christian fundamentalist con men and women have been doing to undermine the philosophies of their religious belief system.

Sabine Grant

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and views. Though I have not required any supernatural belief crutch in my life for over 52 of the last 67 years, I do sincerely believe that I have acquired a rather extensive background in Christian, as well as several other, supernatural belief systems. Though I thank you for the offer, I rather doubt that privately sharing scriptural passages with me would be in your best long term interests. Been there! Done that...literally hundreds and hundreds of times...with ministers from a large cross-section of Protestant denominations, Jesuit priests and various rabbis. Just as a matter of information, the pages in one of my six different bibles are falling out because of the extensive use and write-in references I have entered into it.

I think that Mageth pretty well called the shot about checking the person's bio to see if it reveals a little insight. It also tends to indicate that my self-label of Non-Supernaturalist accomplished what I had hoped it might. (I hate labels. Therefore I made one up that might best describe my non-theistic philosophy of life rather than use a word symbol that might trigger a preconceived mental picture/erroneous evaluation/judgment.

It is my tendency to provide many URLs for others to use to help them in learning more about any issue under discussion.

NFLP

Here's the insightful one.

That was ambiguous? Well, maybe so. Apparently S.A. thought so also.

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]</p>

Toto · 10-03-2002, 09:33 PM

NFLP - what is the source of your information? Have you contacted Americans United?

NFLP · 10-04-2002, 12:26 AM

Toto,
I was there. Yes; yesterday.
Buffman,
I thought perhaps you were posting how Randy and Paula were being "persecuted" in the press. When you can't see someone's eyes, sometimes you just never know.

Buffman · 10-04-2002, 12:49 AM

NFLP

Here was another clue.

For those who may not be familiar with this outfit/gang, here are some general hyperlinks.

Normally you would not hear a cultist call one of his groups an "outfit/gang." I was also looking for some that might have pictures of the "Pastor and Pastoress." (Jim and Tammy all over again.) We already have "The Holy Land " in Orlando. Maybe they will build "Wall World" in Tampa. Or maybe they will attempt to build an Ark in Busch Garden.

NFLP · 10-04-2002, 07:01 PM

Buffman,
Well strap me in a Pinto and back me into a brickwall; sometimes perspicuity eludes me.

You can see photos of them at <a href="http://www.withoutwalls.org" target="_blank">www.withoutwalls.org</a>
They are not physically unattractive for the genre and they're not clownish like Jim and Tammy Faye.

In fact I see a fair amount of "goodlooking" men and women who seem to be among their elite. Daryll Strawberry's wife, Cherise, has arrived late several times (at least three) but there was a seat for her front row, center.

[ October 05, 2002: Message edited by: NFLP ]</p>

Sabine Grant · 10-05-2002, 06:48 PM

oh sorry buffman...... I really thought you were trying to justify that church's doings. Ought to make you feel good a christian trying to correct another christian.... what does it tell you ?
We are not all conditionned and blind about the lack of honesty and authenticity displayed by christianity.
You have no idea how much I grieve the whole thing. My faith is real.... I mean I really mean to place my God before myself most of the time. Is it crazy to apologize in this Infidel Forum? I just want to tell you all that there are some good believers out there who really mean to contribute to the betterment of humanity. We may fail at times but at least we tried.
I am so sick and tired of what the Randy Whites project and the Benny Hinns. It hurts me personaly.
NFLP. Do not please confuse human failures wih God's intent. I am an example of a human being who is the absolute misfit in this society but yet lives on because of her faith in God. There is some degree of goodness in faith. Faith is not always a mean to satisfy greed or pride. At times it is what allows us to go on and reach out to those who are in real need.
It is what allows us to be perceptive and responsive to other people's needs. It is what makes me want to relieve the aches and pains of the old woman I am bathing in her miserable trailer. We are not all twisted and corrupted.
Most of the time we do for others what we wish would have been done for us. Instead of being paralized by bitterness and resentment, we move on thru faith.
So I am so sorry buffman and others for the lack of kindness and honesty christianity has demonstrated. Please do not blame God anylonger if you have the notion of a creator. If you do not..... take it as simple human failure to realize that it is a big world out there and we have a mission to make a difference.
I support you in your endeavor NFLP to correct the pastor of that church. He is being desobedient to his own faith which dictates that we respect the law of the land...not even Christ broke the law.
It is absolutly wrong for him to break the law. No believer can honestly support his choice to use his church to promote the political influence of this gubernatorial candidate.
We as believers have been apathic about integrity. So often it is a body of non believers who denounces the wrong doing.
Please NFLP consider alerting any organization of believers as they may be willing to put an end to that wrong doing. Contact the American Center for Law and Justice and please give them the benefit of the doubt... Jay Sagilow is very efficient and he might be objective enough to consider the bad name this Pastor White is giving to other christians.
I will gladly support your request to the ACLJ if you wish NFLP.
You all have a good day.

Splat · 10-05-2002, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sabine Grant:
<strong>
I will gladly support your request to the ACLJ if you wish NFLP.</strong>

the ACLJ?!?!? Sabine, please tell us you just forgot to add a smiley to that.

Buffman · 10-05-2002, 09:18 PM

Sabine Grant

oh sorry buffman...... I really thought you were trying to justify that church's doings. Ought to make you feel good a christian trying to correct another christian.... what does it tell you ?

Please. I was both flattered and pleased by you post. Flattered that you did not view me as some sort of "evil" atheist requiring instant conversion; and pleased by your honest and sincere recognition that any belief system carried to extremes is quite capable of not only prostituting its own message but also self-destructing.

We are not all conditionned...

Unfortunately I can not support that belief.

...and blind about the lack of honesty and authenticity displayed by christianity.

There are various degrees/levels of conditioning.

You have no idea how much I grieve the whole thing. My faith is real.... I mean I really mean to place my God before myself most of the time. Is it crazy to apologize in this Infidel Forum? I just want to tell you all that there are some good believers out there who really mean to contribute to the betterment of humanity. We may fail at times but at least we tried.

In my specific case, you are preaching to the choir. I am well aware of all that you say. I wish I could tell you that all non-theists believe as I do. I can't. However, I can tell you that I work very hard at attempting to be tolerant of all beliefs except one. I am very intolerant of intolerance. Additionally, since bigotry and prejudice are intolerance's kissing cousins, I fear that my tolerance meter reaches that intolerance level much faster when dealing with those who practice either of those two traits.

I am so sick and tired of what the Randy Whites project and the Benny Hinns. It hurts me personaly.

Unfortunately these types of Christian hucksters are far too prevalent within our current society. I am not as upset with them as I am with those that can be so easily duped by them and those leaders of the mainline Christian faiths that fail to speak out against them in no uncertain terms.

NFLP. Do not please confuse human failures wih God's intent. I am an example of a human being who is the absolute misfit in this society but yet lives on because of her faith in God. There is some degree of goodness in faith. Faith is not always a mean to satisfy greed or pride. At times it is what allows us to go on and reach out to those who are in real need.

When a faith belief is put to a positive and productive end, who am I to denounce it simply because it is not the motivation I use for participating in the identical positive and productive activities. I hope you will consider the following. Would you do the same things if there were no supernatural world? In other words, must one believe in the supernatural in order to be good, moral, ethical, and helpful to one's fellow creatures without any personal reward beyond the satisfaction of knowing that they were able to contribute to the improvement in someone else's life?

It is what allows us to be perceptive and responsive to other people's needs. It is what makes me want to relieve the aches and pains of the old woman I am bathing in her miserable trailer. We are not all twisted and corrupted.
Most of the time we do for others what we wish would have been done for us. Instead of being paralized by bitterness and resentment, we move on thru faith.

(Basically the same thought for you to consider. Why is it necessary for one to believe in the supernatural in order to help others or be motivated enough to move on with their own lives?)

So I am so sorry buffman and others for the lack of kindness and honesty christianity has demonstrated. Please do not blame God anylonger if you have the notion of a creator. If you do not..... take it as simple human failure to realize that it is a big world out there and we have a mission to make a difference.

This is a far more complicated issue than we should discuss in this forum or string. Suffice to say that I have no belief in the supernatural. I believe that humans have the capability to determine for themselves what missions to adopt and what differences they wish to seek...if they can learn how to transform their capability into a direct ability through an accurate critical thinking process. And there's the rub. How do humans determine what is accurate?

I support you in your endeavor NFLP to correct the pastor of that church. He is being desobedient to his own faith which dictates that we respect the law of the land...not even Christ broke the law.
It is absolutly wrong for him to break the law. No believer can honestly support his choice to use his church to promote the political influence of this gubernatorial candidate.
We as believers have been apathic about integrity. So often it is a body of non believers who denounces the wrong doing.

Hear! Hear!

Please NFLP consider alerting any organization of believers as they may be willing to put an end to that wrong doing. Contact the American Center for Law and Justice and please give them the benefit of the doubt... Jay Sagilow is very efficient and he might be objective enough to consider the bad name this Pastor White is giving to other christians.
I will gladly support your request to the ACLJ if you wish NFLP.

Given my exposure to the mission and goals of the ACLJ, I do not hold it in the same regard that you do. It was formed by, and is an organ of, the Pat Robertson Ministries. I can find little difference between Pat or Randy. Actually, they appear to be two Christian peas from the same pod.

You all have a good day.

Thank you for your heartening thoughts and views...and "Y'all come back, heah!"

Sabine Grant · 10-06-2002, 04:58 AM

Dear Buffman...would I do the same thing if there were no supernatural world? personaly I have been a better human being thru my faith.
I am not talking about ethics.. I am talking about empathy. The ability to respond in a constructive way to others... instead of adding fuel to the fire, adding water to the well. Some of us grew up with proper nurturing and received guidances from our parents on how to respond to the "rest of the world". Some of us did not. We had to find a way to soften and build our hearts so that we may make a positive difference.
The problem with christianity is that it pertains to define ethics and focuses too much on how to apply those ethics. So the "love" part is neglicted.
My faith is what motivates me to place love as the reason for most of my actions and decisions.
Would I be capable without the notion of whom I consider my model i.e Christ? would I overcome my own "demons" and realize that there is a better way for myself? no. Simply no.
My own nature has been transformed over the past ten years and I still have a long way to go but I am walking on.I consider life to be some kind of boot camp where I receive training and I can undertake challenges thru other people. There is nothing more difficult than turning the other cheek or giving up the" right to be right".
Your childhood and life experiences may have shaped you to be a fine individual. Mine did not.
You fight intolerance, I had to learn to even discern what intolerance is.
Often faith is a matter of personal need. You may not need a "supernatural" model and guide to soften your own heart and apply grace in situations where most of us want to respond with contention. I do.
Do I strive for my own betterment because I believe I will go to hell if I do not? that notion never entered my mind. It is a sad shame so many christians do.
As for the ACLJ, it is part of my belief that I ought to challenge a christian organization to do what is right. What is right is for them to look into an obvious violation of the laws of the land(to stick to the biblical term).Rather than throwing the towel and claiming that the ACLJ will look the other way, until they have been given an opportunity to remedy to the actions of WithoutWalls, I honestly cannot evaluate that they will lack integrity.I will work on getting all the documentation from NFLP and address it to the ACLJ. No matter how corrupted a system might be,I believe there might be at least one person whose consciousness will be triggered by our plea.

I do not give up on human nature no matter how ugly it may appear to be. Because and again I give the author of my life the credit to be able to transform anyone.
I do not respond with contention to a non theist. It is not my job to convince anyone that "I am right". I'd rather build bridges with others and enjoy healthy relationships. I will fuss here or somewhere else when I see anyone resorting to mistreating anyone.
Voila!

Toto · 10-06-2002, 11:47 AM

Hi Sabine, this isn't the forum to explore the question, but I am very interested in your take on Christianity, and why you think it is the only way to psychological health (or why it is worth the baggage of hellfire and creationism that comes with it). Did you try any secular forms of psychotherapy or other religions? Perhaps you could give your background in the Introductions and Welcome forum, or maybe you have and I missed it.

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10-03-2002, 08:27 PM	#11
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	My goodness! Now all has become clear. As I was reading the two posts immediately following mine, I was becoming increasingly nonplused. Then when I read NFLP's statement, I surrendered to being completely baffled. I had asked how NFLP had come to have possession of the information posted. Why? Well the NFLP home location indicated California. Why would someone know what was going on in Tampa, Florida Democratic politics who lived in Cal. when someone only 75 miles east of Tampa had never seen any mention of the Jones endorsement by White? I have been following Florida politics rather closely since retiring here more than 22 years ago. I read 4th Generation's post and burst out laughing. (Please! No offense intended to anyone.) It had never occurred to me that anyone who had read any of my other posts, or my Bio, could mistake me for a believer. However, in one sense, I am rather flattered that Sabine Grant could have interpretted my post from that mindset. By doing so, he/she confirmed my belief that there are a huge number of Christians in this country who have finally begun to recognize what a small bunch of Christian fundamentalist con men and women have been doing to undermine the philosophies of their religious belief system. Sabine Grant Thank you for sharing your thoughts and views. Though I have not required any supernatural belief crutch in my life for over 52 of the last 67 years, I do sincerely believe that I have acquired a rather extensive background in Christian, as well as several other, supernatural belief systems. Though I thank you for the offer, I rather doubt that privately sharing scriptural passages with me would be in your best long term interests. Been there! Done that...literally hundreds and hundreds of times...with ministers from a large cross-section of Protestant denominations, Jesuit priests and various rabbis. Just as a matter of information, the pages in one of my six different bibles are falling out because of the extensive use and write-in references I have entered into it. I think that Mageth pretty well called the shot about checking the person's bio to see if it reveals a little insight. It also tends to indicate that my self-label of Non-Supernaturalist accomplished what I had hoped it might. (I hate labels. Therefore I made one up that might best describe my non-theistic philosophy of life rather than use a word symbol that might trigger a preconceived mental picture/erroneous evaluation/judgment. It is my tendency to provide many URLs for others to use to help them in learning more about any issue under discussion. NFLP Here's the insightful one. That was ambiguous? Well, maybe so. Apparently S.A. thought so also. [ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]</p>

10-03-2002, 09:33 PM	#12
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	NFLP - what is the source of your information? Have you contacted Americans United?

10-04-2002, 12:26 AM	#13
NFLP Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Southeast Posts: 150	Toto, I was there. Yes; yesterday. Buffman, I thought perhaps you were posting how Randy and Paula were being "persecuted" in the press. When you can't see someone's eyes, sometimes you just never know.

10-04-2002, 12:49 AM	#14
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	NFLP Here was another clue. For those who may not be familiar with this outfit/gang, here are some general hyperlinks. Normally you would not hear a cultist call one of his groups an "outfit/gang." I was also looking for some that might have pictures of the "Pastor and Pastoress." (Jim and Tammy all over again.) We already have "The Holy Land " in Orlando. Maybe they will build "Wall World" in Tampa. Or maybe they will attempt to build an Ark in Busch Garden.

10-04-2002, 07:01 PM	#15
NFLP Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Southeast Posts: 150	Buffman, Well strap me in a Pinto and back me into a brickwall; sometimes perspicuity eludes me. You can see photos of them at <a href="http://www.withoutwalls.org" target="_blank">www.withoutwalls.org</a> They are not physically unattractive for the genre and they're not clownish like Jim and Tammy Faye. In fact I see a fair amount of "goodlooking" men and women who seem to be among their elite. Daryll Strawberry's wife, Cherise, has arrived late several times (at least three) but there was a seat for her front row, center. [ October 05, 2002: Message edited by: NFLP ]</p>

10-05-2002, 06:48 PM	#16
Sabine Grant Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 32,364	oh sorry buffman...... I really thought you were trying to justify that church's doings. Ought to make you feel good a christian trying to correct another christian.... what does it tell you ? We are not all conditionned and blind about the lack of honesty and authenticity displayed by christianity. You have no idea how much I grieve the whole thing. My faith is real.... I mean I really mean to place my God before myself most of the time. Is it crazy to apologize in this Infidel Forum? I just want to tell you all that there are some good believers out there who really mean to contribute to the betterment of humanity. We may fail at times but at least we tried. I am so sick and tired of what the Randy Whites project and the Benny Hinns. It hurts me personaly. NFLP. Do not please confuse human failures wih God's intent. I am an example of a human being who is the absolute misfit in this society but yet lives on because of her faith in God. There is some degree of goodness in faith. Faith is not always a mean to satisfy greed or pride. At times it is what allows us to go on and reach out to those who are in real need. It is what allows us to be perceptive and responsive to other people's needs. It is what makes me want to relieve the aches and pains of the old woman I am bathing in her miserable trailer. We are not all twisted and corrupted. Most of the time we do for others what we wish would have been done for us. Instead of being paralized by bitterness and resentment, we move on thru faith. So I am so sorry buffman and others for the lack of kindness and honesty christianity has demonstrated. Please do not blame God anylonger if you have the notion of a creator. If you do not..... take it as simple human failure to realize that it is a big world out there and we have a mission to make a difference. I support you in your endeavor NFLP to correct the pastor of that church. He is being desobedient to his own faith which dictates that we respect the law of the land...not even Christ broke the law. It is absolutly wrong for him to break the law. No believer can honestly support his choice to use his church to promote the political influence of this gubernatorial candidate. We as believers have been apathic about integrity. So often it is a body of non believers who denounces the wrong doing. Please NFLP consider alerting any organization of believers as they may be willing to put an end to that wrong doing. Contact the American Center for Law and Justice and please give them the benefit of the doubt... Jay Sagilow is very efficient and he might be objective enough to consider the bad name this Pastor White is giving to other christians. I will gladly support your request to the ACLJ if you wish NFLP. You all have a good day.

10-05-2002, 09:18 PM	#18
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	Sabine Grant oh sorry buffman...... I really thought you were trying to justify that church's doings. Ought to make you feel good a christian trying to correct another christian.... what does it tell you ? Please. I was both flattered and pleased by you post. Flattered that you did not view me as some sort of "evil" atheist requiring instant conversion; and pleased by your honest and sincere recognition that any belief system carried to extremes is quite capable of not only prostituting its own message but also self-destructing. We are not all conditionned... Unfortunately I can not support that belief. ...and blind about the lack of honesty and authenticity displayed by christianity. There are various degrees/levels of conditioning. You have no idea how much I grieve the whole thing. My faith is real.... I mean I really mean to place my God before myself most of the time. Is it crazy to apologize in this Infidel Forum? I just want to tell you all that there are some good believers out there who really mean to contribute to the betterment of humanity. We may fail at times but at least we tried. In my specific case, you are preaching to the choir. I am well aware of all that you say. I wish I could tell you that all non-theists believe as I do. I can't. However, I can tell you that I work very hard at attempting to be tolerant of all beliefs except one. I am very intolerant of intolerance. Additionally, since bigotry and prejudice are intolerance's kissing cousins, I fear that my tolerance meter reaches that intolerance level much faster when dealing with those who practice either of those two traits. I am so sick and tired of what the Randy Whites project and the Benny Hinns. It hurts me personaly. Unfortunately these types of Christian hucksters are far too prevalent within our current society. I am not as upset with them as I am with those that can be so easily duped by them and those leaders of the mainline Christian faiths that fail to speak out against them in no uncertain terms. NFLP. Do not please confuse human failures wih God's intent. I am an example of a human being who is the absolute misfit in this society but yet lives on because of her faith in God. There is some degree of goodness in faith. Faith is not always a mean to satisfy greed or pride. At times it is what allows us to go on and reach out to those who are in real need. When a faith belief is put to a positive and productive end, who am I to denounce it simply because it is not the motivation I use for participating in the identical positive and productive activities. I hope you will consider the following. Would you do the same things if there were no supernatural world? In other words, must one believe in the supernatural in order to be good, moral, ethical, and helpful to one's fellow creatures without any personal reward beyond the satisfaction of knowing that they were able to contribute to the improvement in someone else's life? It is what allows us to be perceptive and responsive to other people's needs. It is what makes me want to relieve the aches and pains of the old woman I am bathing in her miserable trailer. We are not all twisted and corrupted. Most of the time we do for others what we wish would have been done for us. Instead of being paralized by bitterness and resentment, we move on thru faith. (Basically the same thought for you to consider. Why is it necessary for one to believe in the supernatural in order to help others or be motivated enough to move on with their own lives?) So I am so sorry buffman and others for the lack of kindness and honesty christianity has demonstrated. Please do not blame God anylonger if you have the notion of a creator. If you do not..... take it as simple human failure to realize that it is a big world out there and we have a mission to make a difference. This is a far more complicated issue than we should discuss in this forum or string. Suffice to say that I have no belief in the supernatural. I believe that humans have the capability to determine for themselves what missions to adopt and what differences they wish to seek...if they can learn how to transform their capability into a direct ability through an accurate critical thinking process. And there's the rub. How do humans determine what is accurate? I support you in your endeavor NFLP to correct the pastor of that church. He is being desobedient to his own faith which dictates that we respect the law of the land...not even Christ broke the law. It is absolutly wrong for him to break the law. No believer can honestly support his choice to use his church to promote the political influence of this gubernatorial candidate. We as believers have been apathic about integrity. So often it is a body of non believers who denounces the wrong doing. Hear! Hear! Please NFLP consider alerting any organization of believers as they may be willing to put an end to that wrong doing. Contact the American Center for Law and Justice and please give them the benefit of the doubt... Jay Sagilow is very efficient and he might be objective enough to consider the bad name this Pastor White is giving to other christians. I will gladly support your request to the ACLJ if you wish NFLP. Given my exposure to the mission and goals of the ACLJ, I do not hold it in the same regard that you do. It was formed by, and is an organ of, the Pat Robertson Ministries. I can find little difference between Pat or Randy. Actually, they appear to be two Christian peas from the same pod. You all have a good day. Thank you for your heartening thoughts and views...and "Y'all come back, heah!"

10-06-2002, 04:58 AM	#19
Sabine Grant Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 32,364	Dear Buffman...would I do the same thing if there were no supernatural world? personaly I have been a better human being thru my faith. I am not talking about ethics.. I am talking about empathy. The ability to respond in a constructive way to others... instead of adding fuel to the fire, adding water to the well. Some of us grew up with proper nurturing and received guidances from our parents on how to respond to the "rest of the world". Some of us did not. We had to find a way to soften and build our hearts so that we may make a positive difference. The problem with christianity is that it pertains to define ethics and focuses too much on how to apply those ethics. So the "love" part is neglicted. My faith is what motivates me to place love as the reason for most of my actions and decisions. Would I be capable without the notion of whom I consider my model i.e Christ? would I overcome my own "demons" and realize that there is a better way for myself? no. Simply no. My own nature has been transformed over the past ten years and I still have a long way to go but I am walking on.I consider life to be some kind of boot camp where I receive training and I can undertake challenges thru other people. There is nothing more difficult than turning the other cheek or giving up the" right to be right". Your childhood and life experiences may have shaped you to be a fine individual. Mine did not. You fight intolerance, I had to learn to even discern what intolerance is. Often faith is a matter of personal need. You may not need a "supernatural" model and guide to soften your own heart and apply grace in situations where most of us want to respond with contention. I do. Do I strive for my own betterment because I believe I will go to hell if I do not? that notion never entered my mind. It is a sad shame so many christians do. As for the ACLJ, it is part of my belief that I ought to challenge a christian organization to do what is right. What is right is for them to look into an obvious violation of the laws of the land(to stick to the biblical term).Rather than throwing the towel and claiming that the ACLJ will look the other way, until they have been given an opportunity to remedy to the actions of WithoutWalls, I honestly cannot evaluate that they will lack integrity.I will work on getting all the documentation from NFLP and address it to the ACLJ. No matter how corrupted a system might be,I believe there might be at least one person whose consciousness will be triggered by our plea. I do not give up on human nature no matter how ugly it may appear to be. Because and again I give the author of my life the credit to be able to transform anyone. I do not respond with contention to a non theist. It is not my job to convince anyone that "I am right". I'd rather build bridges with others and enjoy healthy relationships. I will fuss here or somewhere else when I see anyone resorting to mistreating anyone. Voila!

10-06-2002, 11:47 AM	#20
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Hi Sabine, this isn't the forum to explore the question, but I am very interested in your take on Christianity, and why you think it is the only way to psychological health (or why it is worth the baggage of hellfire and creationism that comes with it). Did you try any secular forms of psychotherapy or other religions? Perhaps you could give your background in the Introductions and Welcome forum, or maybe you have and I missed it.

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