Freethought & Rationalism Archive

MrDarwin · 10-29-2002, 09:19 AM

From the New York Times:

Quote:

Europeans first came to the Western Hemisphere armed with guns, the cross and, unknowingly, pathogens. Against the alien agents of disease, the indigenous people never had a chance. Their immune systems were unprepared to fight smallpox and measles, malaria and yellow fever.

The epidemics that resulted have been well documented. What had not been clearly recognized until now, though, is that the general health of Native Americans had apparently been deteriorating for centuries before 1492.

Read the rest of the article:

<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/29/science/social/29INDI.html" target="_blank">Don't Blame Columbus for All the Indians' Ills</a>

joedad · 10-29-2002, 10:04 AM

Quote:

In an epilogue to the book, Dr. Philip D. Curtin, an emeritus professor of history at Johns Hopkins University, said the skeletal evidence of the physical well-being of pre-Columbians "shows conclusively that however much it may have deteriorated on contact with the outer world, it was far from paradisiacal before the Europeans and Africans arrived."

Isn't this a bit naive, even a kind of strawman? Why do people insist on believing in such eden-like existences, fountains of youth, and fabled lost cities of gold?

Personally, I was not aware of this myth.

joe

Perchance · 10-29-2002, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by joedad:

Isn't this a bit naive, even a kind of strawman? Why do people insist on believing in such eden-like existences, fountains of youth, and fabled lost cities of gold?

Personally, I was not aware of this myth.

joe

Hi joedad,

I have heard of it. It may depend on the kind of environment I had schooling in, but I read articles and heard lectures that described the American continents and the lives of the Native Americans before Columbus arrived as "perfect," "bountiful," "Nature's Eden," and other similar phrases. When I took a class on Latin American history, there were several students in the class who were shocked to learn that the Aztecs had performed human sacrifices, and insisted that it was "horrible, white men's lies." Luckily, the professor had made this his speciality for over thirty years, and managed to gently point out that they were being idiots.

Actually, I think there is a strong element of this still around, especially in the New Age movement. It usually takes the form now of a tendency to view Native American culture as "so close to nature" that it was somehow perfect, even if the word "perfect" never gets spoken.

Slightly OT: I don't really understand why closeness to nature is supposed to be so fascinating and perfect myself. I tend to like Oscar Wilde's quote that, "Nature is so uncomfortable. Grass is hard and wet and lumpy and full of horrible black bugs"

Perhaps this attitude comes as a reaction to lies about Native Americans that have been spread: i.e., they were sub-human, they didn't have a high level of culture, they deserved to be conquered and treated like animals. But swinging all the way around to a paradise story doesn't get at the truth, either.

-Perchance.

Rusting Car Bumper · 10-29-2002, 11:51 AM

There is an account in Lewis and Clark's writings where the Native Americans tok them out to burn down a tree for fun.

DC

Mad Kally · 10-29-2002, 12:15 PM

I wish they had mentioned what Columbus did to the Arawak Indian tribe of the Carribean.

Beelzebub · 10-29-2002, 01:17 PM

I don't know if it has actually been proven but I was always under the impression that the Native Americans reciprocated in the pathogen exchange by introducing Europeans to syphilis. Of course, the exchange was hardly equal, but it was the best they could do.

mibby529 · 10-29-2002, 01:22 PM

The first recorded case of syphilis was in Athens, circa 500 BC, actually. A few millennia before Columbus. But of course the wasicu never check the time frame.

Most Indians are sick of both the paradise story (Upon hearing it, I remark "Where's my insulin?") and the Mein Kampf-style thing.

As for smallpox, there's more to the story. Oftentimes, in the 19th century, missionaries would intentionally give us smallpox-infected blankets. There are even stories of missionaries lecturing us on the Bible and, since hell wasn't a good enough argumentum ad baculum, they claimed a box they had was full of smallpox, and if we didn't convert, they'd open it.

Kharakov · 10-29-2002, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beelzebub:
I don't know if it has actually been proven but I was always under the impression that the Native Americans reciprocated in the pathogen exchange by introducing Europeans to syphilis. Of course, the exchange was hardly equal, but it was the best they could do.

Did you forget tobacco?

Corwin · 10-29-2002, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kharakov:


Did you forget tobacco?

And reservation casinos.

Beelzebub · 10-29-2002, 05:41 PM

And reservation casinos.
-----------------------------------------------
Even worse, marijuana and chocolate!

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10-29-2002, 11:51 AM	#4
Rusting Car Bumper Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: U.S. Posts: 4,171	There is an account in Lewis and Clark's writings where the Native Americans tok them out to burn down a tree for fun. DC

10-29-2002, 12:15 PM	#5
Mad Kally Banned Join Date: May 2001 Location: LALA Land in California Posts: 3,764	I wish they had mentioned what Columbus did to the Arawak Indian tribe of the Carribean.

10-29-2002, 01:17 PM	#6
Beelzebub Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Connecticut Posts: 554	I don't know if it has actually been proven but I was always under the impression that the Native Americans reciprocated in the pathogen exchange by introducing Europeans to syphilis. Of course, the exchange was hardly equal, but it was the best they could do.

10-29-2002, 01:22 PM	#7
mibby529 Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Cali Posts: 170	The first recorded case of syphilis was in Athens, circa 500 BC, actually. A few millennia before Columbus. But of course the wasicu never check the time frame. Most Indians are sick of both the paradise story (Upon hearing it, I remark "Where's my insulin?") and the Mein Kampf-style thing. As for smallpox, there's more to the story. Oftentimes, in the 19th century, missionaries would intentionally give us smallpox-infected blankets. There are even stories of missionaries lecturing us on the Bible and, since hell wasn't a good enough argumentum ad baculum, they claimed a box they had was full of smallpox, and if we didn't convert, they'd open it.

10-29-2002, 05:41 PM	#10
Beelzebub Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Connecticut Posts: 554	And reservation casinos. ----------------------------------------------- Even worse, marijuana and chocolate!

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