Fiach

Christianity is a pagan religion. Judaism did have in the Talmud a Jesus Ben Pandira who was son of Mary Magdalene. He was tried for sorcery, and stoned to death, then hung on a tree. That was more than a century before the fictional Jesus of christianity.

Paul, a very irrational fellow had some Jewish training and education but he was raised in the Pagan city of Tarsus. There he was surrounded by the dominant Roman religion at the time, Mithraism. There were other Eastern Myster Cults in Tarsus, an important sea port and crossroads of trade routes.

Paul when to Jerusalem where a Jesus cult still existed, and tried to put his "spin" on the legend. Incidently there are no Roman records of a Jesus being crucified for anything, or even being tried. The Ebionite Messianic Jews who followed the teachings of Jesus (Possibly Peter and James) argued and the bunch of them drove Paul out of Jerusalem. Paul fled first to Petra, but soon made a nuisance of himself and had to flee by boat back to Tarsus where he remained "silent" for 14 years.

During that time, Paul using Mithraism as the model, re-invented it using Jesus in place of Mithra. He gave Jesus most of Mithra's characteristics. Virgin birth (alternately he was born of a rock), in a cave attended by shepherds, and visited by Magi. He was the son of Ahura Mazda, the high God but also human. He later was killed but resurrected to save mankind. Mithraism being an offshoot of Zoroastrianism believed in Heaven and Hell, a final battle of Good versus Evil. A final judgement day was supposed to follow in which Ahura Mazda would assign the good to Heaven and the bad to Hell. Mithra brough saving grace, and water baptism as well as blood baptism in which one was "Born Again."

Mithraic rites of which a limited amount is known but 5 cave frescoes that indicate they had 7 sacraments. They also had 7 in a number of other myths perhaps being the origin of the 7 horned beast in Revelations.

By the time Paul had syncreted Mithraism with Jesus he was ready to spread the new faith along with his early disciples. They still needed to iron out a few details. Was Jesus equal to God? Was he a created God (Arians), or one of a trinity (Athansian)? Emperor Constantine intervenened. He was favourable to Sol Invictus the Sun God. But his mother converted to Athanasian Christianity. The Empire had been through multiple German invasions and Persian Wars and several civil wars with rival emperors.

He needed a unifying factor. He decided that Athanasian Christianity nearly identical with Mithraism the largest relgion could be compatible with Sol Invictus and even the second fastest growing cult, Druidism. So with his troops at Nicaea, he called the Bishops together, banned competing christian cults and forced the Mithraists, most continental Druids, and Sun Cultists to admit that Jesus was Mithra was the Sun God Sol/Aten, and the Druidic Sun god Lugh (Light).

His merger worked rather well. The empire so unified, lasted another 150 years. His successors, especially Theodosius I, persecuted the remaining "pagans" out of existence or exiled them to remote rural areas. Where is the Judaism here?

Paul had utilised various Jewish scriptural texts to show prophesy of Jesus/Mithra's coming, he really had to put a heck of a spin on most of them. He reinterpreted them in his epistles to better fit his new religion, which wasn't really a new religion but a syncretized mosaic of four pagan cults with a superficial Judaic "history".

Fiach

Fiach

From the Mercian Order, exact author unspecified. So I put in the website in as well.

http://members.aol.com/MercStG/ChriMithPage1.html

Christianity or Mithraism


"It is surprising that Christianity was to become the international religion, when one considers that the already well-established religion of Mithraism was a natural challenger for that title."

"Up until the time of the Emperor Constantine, it was the latter religion which was more popular within the framework of the Roman Empire, and Christianity was regarded as being only one sect amongst numerous other sects. It was only when Constantine decreed that Christianity was to be the state religion, that Mithraism, together with a host of other religions and sects, was put into the melting pot, and ideas of that religion, most suited for the Christian purpose, were absorbed into the new state-approved religion. "

"Mithraism, the religion followed by those who worshipped the sun god Mithra, originated in Persia about 400 BC, and was to spread its Pagan ideas as far west as the British Isles. In the early centuries of the Christian era, Mithraism was the most wide-spread religion in the Western World, and its remains are to be found in monuments scattered around the countries of Europe, which then comprised the known civilised world."

"Mithra was regarded as created by, yet co-equal with, the Supreme Deity. Mithraists were Trinitarian, kept Sunday as their day of worship, and their chief festivals were what we know of as Christmas and Easter. Long before the advent of Jesus, Mithra was said to have been born of a virgin mother, in a cave, at the time of Christmas, and died on a cross at Easter. Baptism was practised, and the sign of the cross was made on the foreheads of all newly-baptised converts. Mithra was considered to be the saviour of the world, conferring on his followers an eternal life in Heaven, and, similar to the story of Jesus, he died to save all others, provided that they were his followers."

"For three centuries both religions ran parallel, Mithraism first becoming known to the Romans in 70 BC, Christianity following a century later, and it wasn’t until AD 377 that Christianity became sufficiently strong to suppress its former rival, although Mithraism was to remain a formidable opponent for some time after that, only slowly being forsaken by the people. It was only the absorption of many Mithraist ideas into Christianity which finally saw its downfall."

"The big turning point was brought about by the Congress of Nicaea in AD 325. Constantine, a great supporter of the Christian religion, although not converting to it until the time of his decease, gathered together 2,000 leading figures in the world of theology, the idea being to bring about the advent of Christianity as the official state religion of Rome. It was out of this assembly that Jesus was formally declared to be the Son of God, and Saviour of Mankind, another slain saviour god, bringing up the tally of slain god-men to seventeen, of which Mithra, together with such men as Bel and Osiris, was included."

"Just as Nicaea can be regarded as the birthplace of Christianity, so too it can be regarded as the graveyard of what we imagine Jesus taught. From that time onwards, Christianity was to absorb the superstitions of Mithraism, and many other older religions, and what was believed to have happened to earlier saviour gods, was made to centre around the Nazarene. The coming of Christianity under state control was to preserve it as a religion, and was the death knell of all other sects and cults within the Roman Empire. "

"Had Constantine decided to retain Mithraism as the official state religion, instead of putting Christianity in its place, it would have been the latter that would have been obliterated. To Constantine however, Christianity had one great advantage, it preached that repentant sinners would be forgiven their sins, provided that they were converted Christians at the time of their Passing, and Constantine had much to be forgiven for, He personally did not convert to the new religion until he was on his death bed, the reason being that only sins committed following conversion were accountable, so all sins committed by a convert, prior to conversion, didn’t matter, and he could hardly have sinned too much whilst he was lying on his death bed."

"Mithraism could not offer the same comfort to a man like Constantine, who was regarded as being one of the worst mass-murderers of his time."

"The Emperor Julian, who followed Constantine, went back to Mithraism, but his short reign of only two years could not change what Constantine had decreed. His defeat, and death, at the hands of the Persians, was used by the Christians as an argument in favour of the new, against the old, being looked upon as an omen that Christianity had divine approval. If Julian had been spared to reign some years longer, the entire history of international religion would almost certainly have been different."

"Under Emperor Jovian, who followed Julian, the substitution of Christianity for Mithraism made further progress, and old Pagan beliefs, like the Virgin Birth, Baptism and Holy Trinity, became generally accepted as the basis of the state religion. The early Christian idea of Unitarianism was quickly squashed in favour of Trinitarianism, and those who refused to accept the Holy Trinity were put to the sword, the beginning of mass slaughter in the name of religion, which was to go on for centuries."

http://members.aol.com/MercStG/ChriMithPage1.html

Posted by Fiach, not written by me, but by someone of the Mercian Order.

Radorth

Really? I thought it took 300 tears to assemble, redact, etc. by 30 or more people, not one of whom ever admitted it was a fabrication or that Jesus was a myth. Not even Marcion did.

Funny thousands of historians, including skeptics, have no trouble at all accepting Jesus as a historical character who lived at the time he did, and did most of what was claimed, while not accepting other myths.

I would like to read three or four lengthy, detailed narratives of Mithrai though, so I can compare.

Rad

Radorth

Well I searched the internet for the gospels of the god Mithrai, and found none. In fact we know virtually nothing of Mithrai at all:

"The Roman cult of Mithras is known as a "mystery" cult, which is to say that its members kept the the liturgy and activities of the cult secret, and more importantly, that they had to participate in an initiation ceremony to become members of the cult. As a result, there is no surviving central text of Mithraism analogous to the Christian Bible, and there is no intelligible text which describes the liturgy. Whether such texts ever existed is unknown, but doubtful."

http://eawc.evansville.edu/essays/mithraism.htm

OK I'm starting to get why Jesus-mythers actually exist and have to grasp at the tiniest straw of evidence Jesus was ahistorical.

1. If they can somehow reduce Christianity to a cult religion like Mithrai, they have some hope the world will stop believing in Christ as it has so many other myths. Nobody's listening really, but that's because Jesus-mythers are so advanced in their thinking compared to say, Durant, H.G. Wells, Schonfield, Klausner,the American founders and a billion other skeptics who have no doubt Jesus existed, said what the NT says he did, and did much of what he is said to have done.

2. Unfortunately, everybody knows Mithrai was a fictional character, so in order to make meaningful comparisons between Mithrai and Christianity, they have to somehow show Paul, James, Peter, etc just dreamed him up, with the collusion of an extraordinary number of people.

3. Since it's like comparing a flea to a bull elephant, they hope enough tiny pinpricks will bring down the elephant. Or they just hope if the repeat the same line long enough, some folks will give up and stop asking questions.

So glad the above mentioned skeptics have fallen from favor. They did much more damage to Jesus without demanding we take so many assertions by faith.

Rad

Biff the unclean

Really? I thought it took 300 tears to assemble, redact, etc. by 30 or more people, not one of whom ever admitted it was a fabrication or that Jesus was a myth. Not even Marcion did.
It was the Mithrains who said it was a myth. Their own myth.
But tell me how many works of fiction have you read that said they were works of fiction?

Funny thousands of historians, including skeptics, have no trouble at all accepting Jesus as a historical character
What they all say , except for the brain washed ones, is that he might be based on a historical character. No truthful person claims that they know that he was because there is nothing from his time the suggests he ever existed. Funny Apollonius of Tyana who lived at the same time and did the same miracles doesn't have that problem.

I would like to read three or four lengthy, detailed narratives of Mithrai though, so I can compare.
It's called the Zend Avesta so knock yourself out.

Well I searched the internet for the gospels of the god Mithrai, and found none. In fact we know virtually nothing of Mithrai at all:
Funny I do a Goggle search and I get page after page of listings. Time to get a new search engine it would seem. Or maybe read a book Joseph Campbell's The Masks of God series gives Mithra hundreds of pages. The updated The Mysteries of Mithra by Franz Cumont is the standard text, but you can find many new books on the subject that cover it in depth.

OK I'm starting to get why Jesus-mythers actually exist and have to grasp at the tiniest straw of evidence Jesus was ahistorical.
To be historical you have to not only exist but while you are here leave some evidence that you were. Nobody saw Jesus or his pals or his wonders and thought enough to write about it to a friend. Jesus, IF he was here left without a trace. You are right there is no evidence. But no evidence IS what makes him ahistorical.

Nobody's listening really,
You'd be surprised.
but that's because Jesus-mythers are so advanced in their thinking compared to say, Durant, H.G. Wells, Schonfield, Klausner,the American founders
Have you ever noticed that when you want to name a Jesus believer who is an intellectual or a scientist that you can't do it with any living names? You always have to head to the dim past. And that you have to lie about skeptics not being skeptical.
We've noticed.

Unfortunately, everybody knows Mithrai was a fictional character,
Constantine didn't know, he remanded a Mithrain so in order to make meaningful comparisons between Mithrai. Julian condemned the Christians for stealing his religion.
they have to somehow show Paul, James, Peter, etc just dreamed him up,
Now think a minute. Jesus is a character who only appears in the NT and what historic evidence did Paul, James, Peter, who are characters in the same novel leave?
with the collusion of an extraordinary number of people.
Who became the richest most powerful people on Earth.

Or they just hope if the repeat the same line long enough, some folks will give up and stop asking questions.
LOL, what a hypocrite you are.

They did much more damage to Jesus without demanding we take so many assertions by faith.
But then nobody is demanding that you take anything on faith. We have told you what Gods Jesus' story was plagiarized from. It is you who are not reading their stories and pretending they don't exist.
Fiach gives you the history. Edward Gibbons The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire goes into the subject in great detail.
But you state that you can't find any information and pull the underhanded Apologist trick trying to get your readers to think that there is no information. You are either intellectually lazy or you are afraid of what you might find. Either way, it doesn't speak well of your arguements.

Biff the unclean

Dear Auntie Hyperia,
I hope this note finds you well, The funniest things have been happening here in town. Friday I was down at the agora buying some fruit and in the middle of the afternoon it got pitch black out. At first I though I had been struck blind, that seems to happen to a lot of people these days. But, no, I was fine. Darkness was just covering the land. And then if that wasn't bad enough the veil in the temple (the brand new veil, not the old one) got rent. It's terrible it wasn't even insured. Moths probably.
When I was buying melons I ran into nice old Mr Hysteria. He said to give you his regards and say that he was sorry that he missed Passover at your house but he had died of the pox and couldn't make it.
Your Loving Nephew,
Flatulentous Maximus

Radorth

That's a simplistic rhetorical question, as usual.

Billions of people, including thousands of skeptics, can tell the difference to one degree or another because lengthy and detailed accounts had an extant original character They have no trouble telling the difference. A few hundred JM'ers don't.

Yeah we know. You're way ahead of the skeptics named above, and surely history in 3003 will record your heroic crusade. Or, alternatively, Durant, et al, will regain favor, and do some actual intellectual damage.

Of what? Commentary and conjecture? There is nothing to compare with the Gospels in length, harmony or detail, but of course, Mithrai is a completely fictional character, made up (as skeptics say) to explain the inexplicable to the faithful.

You really should get out of the fortress more, Biff, and read how many brilliant skeptics believe Mithrai was mythical and Jesus was not. Tone it down a little. You might sell a hundred books to the faithful.

Rad

lpetrich

Does anyone else here find Radorth's emotionalism entertaining?

I certainly do.

Radorth

Heh.

Best you can do today Ip?

Rad

Biff the unclean

That's a simplistic rhetorical question, as usual.
I'm trying to make them as simple as possible for you. And you still don't get it.
Walter R. Brooks wrote a wonderful series of books about Freddy the Pig. No where in any of them does it say that they are fiction. But the fact that they are fiction isn't in doubt because the hero is a talking pig. Likewise the Superman comic books never call themselves fiction. But since the hero can do impossible things there is never a doubt.
You have got a book with a talking snake and a Super-Jew and you want people to think it's fact. LOL.

They have no trouble telling the difference. A few hundred JM'ers don't.
First of all you cannot vote on facts, only opinions. If everyone in the world wanted Jesus to be real he still wouldn't pop into existence. He's either real or he isn't no matter what you believe.
Second the majority of people in this world are not Christians and reject Christianity so you statement is specious and your logic flawed.


(The Masks of God series gives Mithra hundreds of pages.)

Of what? Commentary and conjecture?
So you are so ignorant of scholarship that you don't even know who Joseph Campbell was.
There is nothing to compare with the Gospels in length, harmony or detail, but of course, Mithrai is a completely fictional character, made up (as skeptics say) to explain the inexplicable to the faithful.
His name is Mithra not Mithrai. And of course he's fictional. All Gods are fictional. Dionysus is fictional also. Yet Jesus life story is a combination of the fictional stories of Mithra and Dionysus with a little Celtic and Egyptian Gods bios thrown in for good measure.
And these Gods fictional stories are older than Jesus "true" story.
-------------------
Does anyone else here find Radorth's emotionalism entertaining?
It would be more fun if he weren't so panicky and could stay on a topic for more than two blurbs.
He seems to want to ignore Fiach completely. Probably because he mistook me for a snot nosed kid instead of a Ph.D in his 60's.
I still want to hear if Luther was Arian, Nestorian, Donatist, Athanasian, or Ebionite/Nazarene. I wonder what the billions of credulous skeptics believe he was; ROTFLOL.