Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Amen-Moses · 09-22-2002, 01:50 PM

I noticed in the newspapers to today a strange case which struck me as possibly illuminating.

Apparently a doctor was drugging his patients (all young men and teenagers) and then sexually molesting them. The strange part is that none of these victims actually remember what happened nor did he rape them or otherwise physically harm them (i.e he basically took pictures of their private parts whilst they were unconscious) and the only way that the crimes came out was when some of the pictures were found.

Now although I entirely agree with the illegality of what he did I was struck by the way in which the victims are being offered counselling and one of them was reported as saying the doctor should be killed for his crimes, wouldn't it have been better for the victims if the police had not told them about the crimes? Surely the "harm" in this case is mostly due to the informing of the acts to otherwise oblivious people?

What do others think about this?

(and no I am not in any way condoning what he did nor am I paedophile, homosexual or any other derogatory name you may want to call me)

On a similar track I noticed that the newspaper immediately referred to the doctor as a paedophile (based I presume on the age of his youngest victim who was 12) yet most of his victims were in their 20's.

Amen-Moses

Pomp · 09-22-2002, 02:03 PM

Amen-Moses,

I noticed in the newspapers to today a strange case which struck me as possibly illuminating.

Do you have a link to this story? I'd like to read it.

...wouldn't it have been better for the victims if the police had not told them about the crimes? Surely the "harm" in this case is mostly due to the informing of the acts to otherwise oblivious people?

Without excusing the doctor, as we seem to agree that he was out of line, I think you're probably right. But, most people would seem to prefer to know about such things than not know about them. People seem to place quite a bit of value on controlling their own lives, and being kept in the dark about molestation out of a patenalistic concern for their well-being would probably be objectionable to most.

AtlanticCitySlave · 09-22-2002, 02:06 PM

[ September 22, 2002: Message edited by: AtlanticCitySlave ]</p>

Amen-Moses · 09-22-2002, 02:18 PM

Looks like the newspaper is wrapped around the remains of Sunday dinner in the bin!

Oh well, I found this link <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/scotland/1540468.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/scotland/1540468.stm</a>
which may be the same story but the details are different and it is a year old, now whether the newspaper was misreporting the same case or reporting a different one I can't say but if anyone has yesterdays UK Sun newspaper maybe they can check. I can't find anything else on line btw.

Amen-Moses

Amen-Moses · 09-22-2002, 02:26 PM

Aha, if this link works I think I have found it, this piece is longer than the newspaper version so there are a few more details.

<a href="http://www.mirago.co.uk/scripts/health.asp?story=82469&offset=7" target="_blank">http://www.mirago.co.uk/scripts/health.asp?story=82469&offset=7</a>

Amen-Moses

[ September 22, 2002: Message edited by: Amen-Moses ]</p>

Sabine Grant · 09-22-2002, 02:53 PM

The simple fact that a doctor in medecine used his profession and authority to satisfy his " hobby" makes his actions questionable. Same would go with a minister... a teacher... a law enforcement officer.... anyone who by their position inspire trust to the other party. These young people were vulnerable to that man because he had access to sedatives and they entrusted him as a physician to administer these drugs to them.
He needs help of course to overcome his dysfunctional behavior as time in jail for his crime will not solve his issues.
Moreso I wonder what a 12 year old boy was doing alone in the doctor's office ? where was his caregiver ? I always go with my children...
Amen moses those crimes are not rare... there was a male nurse years ago who raped and even killed his patients who were either in comatose or mentaly ill. I agree with Pomp that the victims needed to be told of what had occured. For the purpose of prosecuting the perpetuator that only makes it a necessity.
There is always the ethical question of whether or not we should be made aware of "bad news" when there is nothing we can do about it.. some want to know if they have a terminal illness.... others would rather not.
The feeling of betrayal must be pretty intense in the victims'minds and the counseling will help.

Marz Blak · 09-24-2002, 08:09 PM

I agree with you--mostly. I can't see how telling this man's victims what he did was in any way doing them any favors.

On the other hand, given that someone capable of abusing his position of trust in the way this man apparently did (and I say "apparently" only because I did not read the links) might, left unchecked, do any number of other, potentially more implicitly harmful things to those in his care; and given that once this became known, it became necessary to sanction him for the sake of people's ability to have trust in the system, as it were, I don't see how he could not be prosecuted; and the necessity of prosecuting him made it necessary as well to inform his victims.

[ September 24, 2002: Message edited by: Marz Blak ]</p>

09-24-2002, 09:50 PM

It is wrong to inform the patients that they had been abused but I would prosecute the doctor to the fullest extent of the law since of those to whom much is given much more is required.

I believe that counselling won't do much good because the guy had 20 years of that already and should have known better.

Amen-Moses · 09-25-2002, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marz Blak:
I don't see how he could not be prosecuted; and the necessity of prosecuting him made it necessary as well to inform his victims.

Could he not be prosecuted without informing his victims? After all it isn't as if they can be called to give witness statements because they don't remember the attacks!

Amen-Moses

Amen-Moses · 09-25-2002, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos:
I believe that counselling won't do much good because the guy had 20 years of that already and should have known better.

The counselling is for the victims btw.

Amen-Moses

09-22-2002, 01:50 PM	#1
Amen-Moses Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Portsmouth, England Posts: 4,652	A rather strange pervert case. I noticed in the newspapers to today a strange case which struck me as possibly illuminating. Apparently a doctor was drugging his patients (all young men and teenagers) and then sexually molesting them. The strange part is that none of these victims actually remember what happened nor did he rape them or otherwise physically harm them (i.e he basically took pictures of their private parts whilst they were unconscious) and the only way that the crimes came out was when some of the pictures were found. Now although I entirely agree with the illegality of what he did I was struck by the way in which the victims are being offered counselling and one of them was reported as saying the doctor should be killed for his crimes, wouldn't it have been better for the victims if the police had not told them about the crimes? Surely the "harm" in this case is mostly due to the informing of the acts to otherwise oblivious people? What do others think about this? (and no I am not in any way condoning what he did nor am I paedophile, homosexual or any other derogatory name you may want to call me) On a similar track I noticed that the newspaper immediately referred to the doctor as a paedophile (based I presume on the age of his youngest victim who was 12) yet most of his victims were in their 20's. Amen-Moses

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

09-22-2002, 02:03 PM	#2
Pomp Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Indianapolis area Posts: 3,468	Amen-Moses, I noticed in the newspapers to today a strange case which struck me as possibly illuminating. Do you have a link to this story? I'd like to read it. ...wouldn't it have been better for the victims if the police had not told them about the crimes? Surely the "harm" in this case is mostly due to the informing of the acts to otherwise oblivious people? Without excusing the doctor, as we seem to agree that he was out of line, I think you're probably right. But, most people would seem to prefer to know about such things than not know about them. People seem to place quite a bit of value on controlling their own lives, and being kept in the dark about molestation out of a patenalistic concern for their well-being would probably be objectionable to most.

09-22-2002, 02:06 PM	#3
AtlanticCitySlave Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: New Jersey Posts: 251	[ September 22, 2002: Message edited by: AtlanticCitySlave ]</p>

09-22-2002, 02:18 PM	#4
Amen-Moses Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Portsmouth, England Posts: 4,652	Looks like the newspaper is wrapped around the remains of Sunday dinner in the bin! Oh well, I found this link <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/scotland/1540468.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/scotland/1540468.stm</a> which may be the same story but the details are different and it is a year old, now whether the newspaper was misreporting the same case or reporting a different one I can't say but if anyone has yesterdays UK Sun newspaper maybe they can check. I can't find anything else on line btw. Amen-Moses

09-22-2002, 02:26 PM	#5
Amen-Moses Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Portsmouth, England Posts: 4,652	Aha, if this link works I think I have found it, this piece is longer than the newspaper version so there are a few more details. <a href="http://www.mirago.co.uk/scripts/health.asp?story=82469&offset=7" target="_blank">http://www.mirago.co.uk/scripts/health.asp?story=82469&offset=7</a> Amen-Moses [ September 22, 2002: Message edited by: Amen-Moses ]</p>

09-22-2002, 02:53 PM	#6
Sabine Grant Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 32,364	The simple fact that a doctor in medecine used his profession and authority to satisfy his " hobby" makes his actions questionable. Same would go with a minister... a teacher... a law enforcement officer.... anyone who by their position inspire trust to the other party. These young people were vulnerable to that man because he had access to sedatives and they entrusted him as a physician to administer these drugs to them. He needs help of course to overcome his dysfunctional behavior as time in jail for his crime will not solve his issues. Moreso I wonder what a 12 year old boy was doing alone in the doctor's office ? where was his caregiver ? I always go with my children... Amen moses those crimes are not rare... there was a male nurse years ago who raped and even killed his patients who were either in comatose or mentaly ill. I agree with Pomp that the victims needed to be told of what had occured. For the purpose of prosecuting the perpetuator that only makes it a necessity. There is always the ethical question of whether or not we should be made aware of "bad news" when there is nothing we can do about it.. some want to know if they have a terminal illness.... others would rather not. The feeling of betrayal must be pretty intense in the victims'minds and the counseling will help.

09-24-2002, 08:09 PM	#7
Marz Blak Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Gloucester Co., NJ, USA Posts: 607	I agree with you--mostly. I can't see how telling this man's victims what he did was in any way doing them any favors. On the other hand, given that someone capable of abusing his position of trust in the way this man apparently did (and I say "apparently" only because I did not read the links) might, left unchecked, do any number of other, potentially more implicitly harmful things to those in his care; and given that once this became known, it became necessary to sanction him for the sake of people's ability to have trust in the system, as it were, I don't see how he could not be prosecuted; and the necessity of prosecuting him made it necessary as well to inform his victims. [ September 24, 2002: Message edited by: Marz Blak ]</p>

09-24-2002, 09:50 PM	#8
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	It is wrong to inform the patients that they had been abused but I would prosecute the doctor to the fullest extent of the law since of those to whom much is given much more is required. I believe that counselling won't do much good because the guy had 20 years of that already and should have known better.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.