Freethought & Rationalism Archive

lunachick · 08-03-2003, 01:10 AM

http://www.watchman.org/

They even attack Yoga! And were you aware of Satanistic Ritual Slaying in the Laci Peterson case?

I've not been over the whole site - just had a brief look over - but the subject index looks interesting.

Enjoy!

Ronin · 08-03-2003, 01:38 AM

What's that header dude hittin' on?

And no scathing Harry Potter ramblings...wtf?!

...these ministries of christian discernments today!

From the site ~

Also, there are many groups operating which engage in the use of deception, fraud, manipulation, coercion, control, and exploitation. The constitutionally protected right of free speech serves as a check and balance against these abuses.

When deception, control, and fraud are present, a person's freedom of choice is undermined. It is always right to publicly and privately expose these practices. The one exposing error or abuse has the responsibility to be accurate.

[emphasis mine] Notice that manipulation, coercion and exploitation fell off the radar.

Hrmmm...oh, I see...this could be the reason ~

1) The Bible, inerrant as originally given, is God's verbally inspired, complete revelation to mankind.

2) There is one God, who is infinitely holy and perfect, existing eternally in the Persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

3) The virgin birth, earthly miracles, sinless life, substitutionary death on the cross, bodily resurrection, ascension, and literal second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

4) The Holy Spirit is the Divine Person sent to indwell, guide, empower and sanctify the believer, and thus to bear witness of our Lord Jesus Christ.

5) The true Church consists of all those who trust in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the sole and sufficient means for obtaining forgiveness of their sins and eternal life with God. Those who so trust in Jesus Christ, are redeemed through His blood and are born again of the Holy Spirit.

6) There will be a resurrection of both the saved and the lost, the first to everlasting life and the second to everlasting punishment.

lunachick · 08-03-2003, 01:51 AM

Hee hee hee...

Check out Acupuncture from the 2001 List of Cults and Religions:

Chinese system of healing using needles or hand pressure (acupressure) applied to certain points on the body, traditionally believed to balance the yin and yang energies in the body by opening blocked meridians (apexes in the pathways). Once the chakras (key points or intersections) are open, the chi, or energy, supposedly can then flow through the body bringing all things into harmony. While some limited physical effects (mostly anesthetic) can be attributed to this practice, these effects have scientific, physiological explanations totally unrelated to the mystical explanation, which derives from Taoism. See Holistic Health.

Scientific explanations that are totally unrelated to the mystical?? Good Lawd, who'da thunk it?!

beth · 08-03-2003, 07:10 AM

From the site:

Quote:

1. OUT-LOUD SHAMING The dynamic: This is the "shame on you" that comes from belittling. It is any message communicated out loud that says, "Something is wrong with you."

The effects: Negative view of self, even self-hatred.

2. FOCUS ON PERFORMANCE The dynamic: How people act is more important than who they are. Love and acceptance are earned by doing or not doing certain things.

The effects: Perfectionism, or giving up without trying; view of God as more concerned with how you act than who you are; cannot ask for help; high need for the approval of others.

3. MANIPULATION The dynamic: Relationships and behaviors are manipulated by very powerful unspoken rules. Yet the unspoken rules communicate these and other shaming messages.

Coding: Messages are sent through a verbal code that others are supposed to decode. "Don't you think it would be better this way?" means, "I want you to do it this way."

Triangling: This means to send a message to someone through another person, instead of delivering it directly.

The effects: Great "radar" - the ability to pick up tension in situations and relationships; ability to decode messages; talking about people instead of to them; difficulty trusting people.

4. IDOLATRY The dynamic: The "god" served by the shame-based relationship system is an impossible-to-please judge. It is a god invented to enforce the performance standard.

The effects: Distorted image of God; high level of anxiety; high need to control thoughts, feelings and behaviors of others.

5. PREOCCUPATION WITH FAULT AND BLAME The dynamic: Reaction is swift and furious toward the one who fails to perform the way the system deems fit. Responsibility and accountability are not the issues here: Fault and blame are the issues.The shame-based system wants a confession in order to know whom to shame.

The effects: The sense that if something is wrong or someone is upset you must have caused it; a high need to be punished for or to pay for mistakes in order to feel good about yourself; difficulty forgiving self.

6. OBSCURED REALITY The dynamic: Members are to deny any thought that is different than those of people in authority. Anything that has the potential to shame those in authority is ignored or denied. Interaction with people and places outside the system threatens the order of things. Consequently, you can't find out what "normal" is. Problems are denied, and therefore they remain.

The effects: Out-of-touch with feelings, needs, thoughts; ignoring your "radar" because you are being "too critical;" feel like no one else understands you; threatened by opinions that differ from yours; suspicious or afraid of others.

7. UNBALANCED INTERRELATEDNESS The dynamic: Either under involved or over involved with each other. Consequently, rules take the place of people. There is no relationship structure in which to learn about behaviors and consequences. People find out about life alone and by accident.

The effects: Fear of being deserted; high need for structure; a sense that if there is a problem, you have to solve it; feeling selfish for having needs; putting up boundaries that keep safe people away; feelings of guilt when you haven't done anything wrong.

When evaluating the emotional foundation the shame-based systems create, it is clear that honesty and trust are undermined in the relationship. This can also hinder a person's maturing in a relationship with God. Codependence, or the dependence upon a person or group, can also grow in this type of shame-based system. Ultimately, a person can lose a correct perception of reality because the only reality that can be identified with is within a shame-based system.

Sounds like I was spiritually abused...by the Church of God while growing up.

McFish · 08-03-2003, 10:51 AM

1. OUT-LOUD SHAMING The dynamic: This is the "shame on you" that comes from belittling. It is any message communicated out loud that says, "Something is wrong with you."

The effects: Negative view of self, even self-hatred.

I get this one all the time. I am entirely able to quash any pro-god 'logic' with my own. I am unable to deal with the personal attacks along the lines of "You must be damaged in some way to not believe as we do."

What they are trying to say is that anyone that is 'well' would believe as they do. It is an interesting viewpoint in that it requires the vast majority of the world's population to be 'unwell'.

I'm annoyed because I've allowed religion to become a topic of discussion at work in this small-town religious environment. As long as it remains theological, I'm fine with it. Once it turns to "You're going to hell." I don't really see how anyone can benefit from it, and it really isn't the kind of discussion I want to be having anyway.

Background - I tend to just smile and nod when somebody finds their keys and says "Praise God!". Out of the blue one day my boss asked me "Do you believe in God?" and I just answered him "Not really." Which immediately led to him trying to convert me with the oh so well thought out analogy of "You wouldn't hold a gun to your wife to get her to love you, would you?!"

I hate it when the analogy isn't even close. They hate it when I use the "You wouldn't put a pit with poison spikes at the bottom outside of your child's bedroom door every night after you tell him "Under pain of death you will not leave your bedroom this night!"

Viti · 08-03-2003, 11:50 AM

This is a surprisingly non-judgemental and straightforward entry

Quote:

Church of Freethought: A social organization for atheists that provides the opportunities for socializing, community service, and social support offered by theistic churches.

I am kinda impressed

tensorproduct · 08-03-2003, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by McFish
"You wouldn't hold a gun to your wife to get her to love you, would you?!"

"You wouldn't put a pit with poison spikes at the bottom outside of your child's bedroom door every night after you tell him "Under pain of death you will not leave your bedroom this night!"

I don't even get those analogies. Does he think that because you're not a Christian you're likely to engage in child abuse and forced sex?

McFish · 08-03-2003, 07:00 PM

He's trying to demonstrate via analogy that God doesn't want to 'force' us to love him and that is the explanation for free will.

My analogy is a life/hell thing. We are god's children and he punishes us in the most dramatic & final way possible if we don't obey him. This makes him a sick puppy in my book.

Religion is the playground of bad analogies.

tensorproduct · 08-04-2003, 09:37 AM

Thanks, McFish. Makes more sense now

MortalWombat · 08-04-2003, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lunachick
They even attack Yoga!

They're in for a bit of a shock when he gets medieval on their asses with his mini-lightsabre.

08-03-2003, 01:10 AM	#1
lunachick Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: NZ Posts: 7,895	A Christian Cult Watch Site - Oh, the irony!! http://www.watchman.org/ They even attack Yoga! And were you aware of Satanistic Ritual Slaying in the Laci Peterson case? I've not been over the whole site - just had a brief look over - but the subject index looks interesting. Enjoy!

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08-03-2003, 01:38 AM	#2
Ronin Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 5,047	What's that header dude hittin' on? And no scathing Harry Potter ramblings...wtf?! ...these ministries of christian discernments today! From the site ~ Also, there are many groups operating which engage in the use of deception, fraud, manipulation, coercion, control, and exploitation. The constitutionally protected right of free speech serves as a check and balance against these abuses. When deception, control, and fraud are present, a person's freedom of choice is undermined. It is always right to publicly and privately expose these practices. The one exposing error or abuse has the responsibility to be accurate. [emphasis mine] Notice that manipulation, coercion and exploitation fell off the radar. Hrmmm...oh, I see...this could be the reason ~ 1) The Bible, inerrant as originally given, is God's verbally inspired, complete revelation to mankind. 2) There is one God, who is infinitely holy and perfect, existing eternally in the Persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. 3) The virgin birth, earthly miracles, sinless life, substitutionary death on the cross, bodily resurrection, ascension, and literal second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 4) The Holy Spirit is the Divine Person sent to indwell, guide, empower and sanctify the believer, and thus to bear witness of our Lord Jesus Christ. 5) The true Church consists of all those who trust in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the sole and sufficient means for obtaining forgiveness of their sins and eternal life with God. Those who so trust in Jesus Christ, are redeemed through His blood and are born again of the Holy Spirit. 6) There will be a resurrection of both the saved and the lost, the first to everlasting life and the second to everlasting punishment.

08-03-2003, 01:51 AM	#3
lunachick Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: NZ Posts: 7,895	Hee hee hee... Check out Acupuncture from the 2001 List of Cults and Religions: Chinese system of healing using needles or hand pressure (acupressure) applied to certain points on the body, traditionally believed to balance the yin and yang energies in the body by opening blocked meridians (apexes in the pathways). Once the chakras (key points or intersections) are open, the chi, or energy, supposedly can then flow through the body bringing all things into harmony. While some limited physical effects (mostly anesthetic) can be attributed to this practice, these effects have scientific, physiological explanations totally unrelated to the mystical explanation, which derives from Taoism. See Holistic Health. Scientific explanations that are totally unrelated to the mystical?? Good Lawd, who'da thunk it?!

08-03-2003, 10:51 AM	#5
McFish Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Nowhere close to Chicago Posts: 694	1. OUT-LOUD SHAMING The dynamic: This is the "shame on you" that comes from belittling. It is any message communicated out loud that says, "Something is wrong with you." The effects: Negative view of self, even self-hatred. I get this one all the time. I am entirely able to quash any pro-god 'logic' with my own. I am unable to deal with the personal attacks along the lines of "You must be damaged in some way to not believe as we do." What they are trying to say is that anyone that is 'well' would believe as they do. It is an interesting viewpoint in that it requires the vast majority of the world's population to be 'unwell'. I'm annoyed because I've allowed religion to become a topic of discussion at work in this small-town religious environment. As long as it remains theological, I'm fine with it. Once it turns to "You're going to hell." I don't really see how anyone can benefit from it, and it really isn't the kind of discussion I want to be having anyway. Background - I tend to just smile and nod when somebody finds their keys and says "Praise God!". Out of the blue one day my boss asked me "Do you believe in God?" and I just answered him "Not really." Which immediately led to him trying to convert me with the oh so well thought out analogy of "You wouldn't hold a gun to your wife to get her to love you, would you?!" I hate it when the analogy isn't even close. They hate it when I use the "You wouldn't put a pit with poison spikes at the bottom outside of your child's bedroom door every night after you tell him "Under pain of death you will not leave your bedroom this night!"

08-03-2003, 07:00 PM	#8
McFish Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Nowhere close to Chicago Posts: 694	He's trying to demonstrate via analogy that God doesn't want to 'force' us to love him and that is the explanation for free will. My analogy is a life/hell thing. We are god's children and he punishes us in the most dramatic & final way possible if we don't obey him. This makes him a sick puppy in my book. Religion is the playground of bad analogies.

08-04-2003, 09:37 AM	#9
tensorproduct Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Dublin, Ireland Posts: 1,330	Thanks, McFish. Makes more sense now

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