Radorth

Oh look. The holier-than-thou Rad police have been called out, who read every page of their contracts and would never ever lie. They know that because they can review their own history with total objectivity and assure you of their own integrity.

Rad

Yellum Notnef

I don't know how many people would actually read all those pages. Probably not many.

I really couldn't care less who lies about reading those pages as it's no big deal. I'm also not the guy walking on egg shells trying not to upset my very temperamental overlord.

Infidelettante

Originally posted by emotional
Here I'm afraid I have to disagree. I'm a firm believer in absolute, objective truth, as in "a rose is a rose is a rose". truth is not determined by one's emotions. Truth is determined by evidence.

I have to accept it as a package deal together with Materialism as a whole.

That is, if evolution is true (and it is...), then all its materialistic ramifications follow

As for my perennial fear of death, well, it's not going to be cured by doing make-belief in non-materialistic theories.

But a rose is more than a rose. It is scent of Grandmothers yard. It is the color of the clouds on some late afternoons when the sun tints them pink. It is the look in a mothers eyes when she gets them for her birthday. You can't take emotions out of your decision making process. Why would you want to adhere to a philosophical stance that says you can find truth but you can't feel good about it?

Why must truth be reduced to biology. Darwin does not own truth. So what if there are gods or not. What does that have to do with truth? You confuse truth and facts. The truth of evolution is that it works when we need to explain the facts of speciation. Evolution has nothing to do with how you deal with your life. Materialism says there is nothing apart from matter. Materialism has nothing to do with your worth as a person.

I think it is clear that you need to change your method of determining what is true. So far you are having trouble with every *truth* you find. Will you ever find a truth you're happy with? And if the truth is not determined by your emotions then why can't you be happy with the evidence you have now. Does happy not work for you? Is it easier to complain about how hard it is to find the truth than it is to decide what is true for you on your own. If what you want is absolute objective truth then be a theist. If you want truth, just plain old every day truth you're going to have make it work on your own. And it won't matter what you choose to be true because there are no truth gods or truth arbiters or truth police. There is no one to tell us what truth is because it is different for each of us. Some things work and some things don't. That is the truth.

As for the fear of death? You're own your own. Just like the rest of us.

JT

Infidelettante

And a double postee by the looks of them. Now how...I have no...idea...anyone?

emotional

No, I don't have to be a theist in order to have absolute, objective truth. I can be a naturalist, atheist, materialist and have it, as I do now. I don't think theists can have a monopoly on dogmatism and absolute truth. I want to be a fundamentalist materialist, and that's what I'm going to be.

Materialism is the only truth, and all those who believe otherwise are in error.

Infidelettante

Originally posted by emotional
No, I don't have to be a theist in order to have absolute, objective truth. I can be a naturalist, atheist, materialist and have it, as I do now. I don't think theists can have a monopoly on dogmatism and absolute truth. I want to be a fundamentalist materialist, and that's what I'm going to be.

The theists will object but do what you will. It is gratifying to see that you have taken my advice to heart and have determined to declare your own truth and others be damned. Well done.

Materialism is the only truth, and all those who believe otherwise are in error.

Whatever works for you.

JT

Radorth

And you wouldn't be a very wise theist if you claimed such. Paul hardly claimed to know all- in fact he claimed otherwise. Not sure where you got that idea.

Ah, I think I see the problem. You want everything neatly compartmentalized just like any Christian fundy. That way, as Sabine pointed out to us, we can feel in control. Unfortunately, the only way to happiness is to give up much of your control, as I'm sure you will discover. When we are young, we go from one simplistic belief system to the next, and find nothing but brick walls.

Rad

Radorth

Huh? I just admitted I don't read them all, but have to say I did. You mean at any moment my "temperamental" Lord is going to strike me dead? Well I can certainly see why you're an unbeliever.

Of course, the whole idea of being a Christian is that you don't have to walk on eggshells. And you certainly don't have to worry about Jesus siding with lawyers and legalists.

Rad

Yellum Notnef

Thats a nice thought,but it's not what I meant. I was assuming that your god watches you and keeps a record of your infractions and would break out this list when you die.

Well I can certainly see that you're wrong. Yet again.

I have no god and no eggshells to worry about so whats the point of being a Christian? It sounds like it's just a mind game people play with themselves.

Stephen T-B

(Going off at a tangent here, but...)
Empathy is odd.
I cannot empathise with Emotional’s fear of death, and I do not consider anything to be intrinsically evil.
Some things certainly have evil effects - theft, deceit, murder, disease, earthquakes and shipwrecks (to skim the first off the top of my brain) - but the Universe is what it is, the world is what it is and we are what we are, and Good Effects and Bad Effects are part of the package. If they weren’t, we’d none of us be here.
While I may not be able to empathise with Emotional, I am, however, very impressed by the ability to remain rational in the face of a strong temperamental need to seek delusional comforts. That strikes me as extraordinarily brave, and by implication, extremely rare but, not, I think, without precedent.
Being in exalted company may not please Emotional very much, but Emotional’s company exalts Infidels.
And that generates empathy in me.